Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....?
- Thread starter Lucky13
- Start date
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DarrenW
Staff Sergeant
Interesting.....
Yup a bit longer than the straight line would suggest.
wuzak
Captain
Has anybody looked into these mission dates?
Just to be clear, they are:
April 11, 1944
April 13, 1944
April 15, 1944
April 24, 1944
April 29, 1944
May 8, 1944
May 12, 1944
May 28, 1944
May 29, 1944
Just had a look at April 11, 1944.
64 bombers lost (52 B-17, 12 B-24), 16 fighters lost (7 P-47, 9 P-51), 406 bombers damaged (343 B-17, 63 B-24) and 29 fighters damaged (16 P-47, 13 P-51).
A total of 643 bombers were sent. 819 fighter escorts (124 P-38, 454 P-47, 241 P-51) were used.
So, the bombers had a 10% loss rate, which I do not believe was sustainable.
More than that, 73% were lost or damaged. Some of that damage would have been from flak, but it still is quite heavy losses.
And it shows that the main difference in loss rates between the Schweinfurt-Regensburg mission (16% of 376), the second Schweingfurt mission (22% of 351) in the latter half of 1943 and the escorted missions in early 1944 was primarily the number of bombers sent on the raid.
April 11 1944
Mission 700: 1,160 bombers and 890 fighters are dispatched in 6 forces to make PFF attacks on the oil industry in W Germany; 5 bombers and 2 fighters are lost:
1. 228 B-17s are dispatched to hit the oil plant at Neunkirchen (151); secondary targets hit are the marshaling yards at Saarbrucken (35) and Neunkirchen (13); 5 B-17s are damaged. Escort is provided by 76 of 77 P-47s and 50 Ninth AF P-51s without loss.
2. 210 of 222 B-24s hit the Misburg oil plant at Hannover; 3 B-24s are lost and 93 damaged; 28 airmen are MIA. Escort is provided by 371 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 0-0-1 aircraft on the ground; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
3. 257 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Harburg oil plant at Hamburg (238); targets of opportunity are the aviation industry at Nordholz (9) and other (2); 9 B-17s are damaged. Escort is provided by 124 of 139 P-51s; they claim 0-0-1 aircraft on the ground; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA) and 1 damaged beyond repair.
4. 186 of 193 B-17s hit the Rhenania oil plant at Hamburg; 2 others hit targets of opportunity; 2 B-17s are lost and 61 damaged; 1 airman is WIA and 18 MIA. Escort is provided by 110 P-51s without loss.
5. 91 of 119 B-17s hit the Welhun oil plant at Bottrop; 26 others hit the secondary, the marshaling yard at Hamm; 24 B-17s are damaged. Escort is provided by 37 of 40 P-51s; they claim 0-0-1 aircraft; 1 P-51 is lost.
6. 133 of 141 B-24s hit Gelsenkirchen/Nordstern without loss. Escort is provided by 50 of 54 P-47s
Missions
Mission 700: 1,160 bombers and 890 fighters are dispatched in 6 forces to make PFF attacks on the oil industry in W Germany; 5 bombers and 2 fighters are lost:
1. 228 B-17s are dispatched to hit the oil plant at Neunkirchen (151); secondary targets hit are the marshaling yards at Saarbrucken (35) and Neunkirchen (13); 5 B-17s are damaged. Escort is provided by 76 of 77 P-47s and 50 Ninth AF P-51s without loss.
2. 210 of 222 B-24s hit the Misburg oil plant at Hannover; 3 B-24s are lost and 93 damaged; 28 airmen are MIA. Escort is provided by 371 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 0-0-1 aircraft on the ground; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
3. 257 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Harburg oil plant at Hamburg (238); targets of opportunity are the aviation industry at Nordholz (9) and other (2); 9 B-17s are damaged. Escort is provided by 124 of 139 P-51s; they claim 0-0-1 aircraft on the ground; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA) and 1 damaged beyond repair.
4. 186 of 193 B-17s hit the Rhenania oil plant at Hamburg; 2 others hit targets of opportunity; 2 B-17s are lost and 61 damaged; 1 airman is WIA and 18 MIA. Escort is provided by 110 P-51s without loss.
5. 91 of 119 B-17s hit the Welhun oil plant at Bottrop; 26 others hit the secondary, the marshaling yard at Hamm; 24 B-17s are damaged. Escort is provided by 37 of 40 P-51s; they claim 0-0-1 aircraft; 1 P-51 is lost.
6. 133 of 141 B-24s hit Gelsenkirchen/Nordstern without loss. Escort is provided by 50 of 54 P-47s
Missions
wuzak
Captain
That is the mission for November 4 1944.
Narrative - Official Air Force Mission Description
Mission 298: 917 bombers and 819 fighters are dispatched in 3 separate forces to bomb production centers (primarily fighter aircraft factories) and targets of opportunity in N Germany; 64 bombers are lost, one of the heaviest single-day losses of World War II. The bombers also drop 2.4 million leaflets. Details are:
1. 341 B-17s are dispatched to hit aviation industry targets at Sorau (108 bomb) and Cottbus (17 bomb); 127 hit Stettin, 20 hit Trechel, 16 hit Dobberphel and 23 hit targets of opportunity; they claim 12-2-3 Luftwaffe aircraft; 19 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 190 damaged; casualties are 12 KIA, 13 WIA and 200 MIA.
2. Of 302 B-17s dispatched, 172 hit Rostock, 52 hit Politz, 35 hit the industrial area at Arnimswalde and 15 hit targets of opportunity; they claim 34-20-19 Luftwaffe aircraft; 33 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 153 damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 9 WIA and 330 MIA.
3. 274 B-24s are dispatched to hit aviation industry targets at Oschersleben (121 bomb) and Berenburg (99 bomb); 9 bomb aviation industry targets at Halberstadt, 9 bomb Eisleben and 5 hit targets of opportunity; they claim 27-2-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 12 B-24s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 63 damaged; casualties are 5 KIA, 9 WIA and 122 MIA.
Escort is provided by 124 P-38s, 454 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 241 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; the fighters claim 51-5-25 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 65-0-67 on the grounds: no P-38s are lost; 7 P-47s are lost and 16 damaged, 7 pilots are MIA; 9 P-51s are lost and 13 damaged, 9 pilots are MIA.
Mission 299: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 2 million leaflets on Paris, Rouen, Le Mans, Rennes, Vichy, Lyon, Limoges and Toulouse between 2301 and 0055 hours local without loss.
12 B-24s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER operations.
wuzak
Captain
Mission 303: 616 fighters are dispatched on strafing sweeps of C and W Germany, airfields being the primary objectives; 33 fighters are lost: 132 P-38s claim 7-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft, 11 P-38s are lost and 16 damaged, 11 pilots are MIA; 262 P-47s claim 20-1-23 aircraft, 7 P-47s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 13 damaged, 7 pilots are MIA; 222 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s claim 30-0-10 aircraft, 15 P-51s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 5 damaged; 12 pilots are MIA.
michael rauls
Tech Sergeant
- 1,679
- Jul 15, 2016
As someone once said, I just can't let that one go. The everyone has been extremely cordial part that is. ( thhe rest is fascinating and informative). Cordial? Really? One person used the f word when responding to me. Several more basically acused me of basically just pulling stuff out of my @ on the verry same page where I had just given what are, at least as far as I know, verry good sources. And that's when I was agreeing with there basic premise i.e. p51 great. I can only imagine if I had said " Ah maybe the p51 aint so hot" When I did not have a specific source but it was something I read for years and just understood to be true I always qualified it as such and often asked if others had differing info I would want to hear it. I don't know how one can be any less pulling stuff out of ones @ than that. Please don't misunderstand me, although considering the nature of the previous decision I am reasonably confident you will( forgive me that one just wrote its self) , it is not that I can't take someone flipping the f word at me. God knows I hear it at work all day and I have even used it myself once or twice( although in what should be friendly discussion) or that I can't take someone accusing me of basically pulling stuff out of my @ when I did not. It's that a: seems like things would be more fun without that sort of thing and b: if someone trys to call that cordial, ya I'm not lettin that slide by.
michael rauls
Tech Sergeant
- 1,679
- Jul 15, 2016
Disclaimer: as i said before Most have been cordial. Certainly don't want that to sound as if its aimed at all
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The problem is, that the B-17s (and B-24s) had the long range fuel advantage. For the Fighter escort, it would have been possible to fly with the bombers *IF* they were leaned out at cruise, loaded down with drop tanks.
But, this was not going to happen - the mission planners anticipate Luftwaffe interceptions so they assigned rotations.
In otherwords, one fighter group would accompany the bombers' ingress to a "point of no return" and at that point, another fighter group would meet the bombers and take the handoff to escort the bomber' egress.
The mission planners would take into consideration the fuel needed for the fighter's assembly and attaching to the bomber group and then a calculated additional burn time fending off Luftwaffe interceptors, plus the fuel needed to return safely return.
So in essence, they worked in a rotation much like a relay marathon.
Michael,
I will anchor for one last round then I will let it go.
First, regarding your comments quoting "others" who said the Mustang was the only plane who could do the distance. It wasn't the only airplane that could do the round trip so your basing at least part of your argument on info from the uninformed. I was not under the impression it was the only plane that could do the trip, and assumed the Mustang did it best which is why it was phased in while other aircraft were pushed out. There was a reason the USAAF kept improving the range during the late war on the P47 / P51 and not the P38. Think P47M or N, P51BCD /H.
Second my background is retired USAF fighter pilot with 17 years in the Eagle. As such I have fought F16s (Dutch, Belgium, US, Taiwanese, Sings plus more I'm sure), F4 (US and German), F5, F18 (USMC, Canadian, Super and regular flavors), F15 (US, Saudi), Mirages of various flavors, Mig29s, Tomcats, A6s, Harriers, Tornados and probably a few others. I was also operational in OV10s and the RC26. I've had 9 backseat rides in F16s and 1 in a CF18. I did the takeoff in the Hornet, rejoined and flew both close a wide formations, ran the radar, and killed my Operations Officer in my first pass in it. We then did some acro and felt VERY comfy in it right away.
While the P38 and P47 could both do the round trip to Berlin and back that is not the whole picture. The P38 in particular had several vices that could be used to neutralize it, those being maneuverability (particularly in roll) and limiting Mach. I lived strength and weaknesses in the air battle arena for the majority of my adult life (my wife would argue the adult part of that statement). Trust me when I say the German fighter pilots were aware of it and used their strengths against its weaknesses. The P47 would in my opine be more difficult an opponent than the Lightning due to it being easier to fly than Lockheed's big twin. I flew the Eagle for a long time and watched new and experienced guys in various types of aircraft. The F16 being the best for a new guy, the Hornet next and the Eagle a distant third in that trio for one reason. Experience in type required to be lethal. The Viper and Hornet are fly by wire, so the new guy can pull for all he is worth and not hurt the plane or worry about over G'ing it. Not so on the Eagle. My point is some aircraft are much easier to use as a tool than others and there in lies one of the true strengths of the P51. Read Robin Olds book and he speaks to this as a guy who flew P38s and Mustangs in that order in combat. Overrated, I honestly don't think so. The right tool, at the right time, in the right place, flown by the right guys.
Also just because the P38/P47 might have been able to close the door on the Luftwaffe doesn't mean the Mustang was overrated. Also why did the powers that be keep bringing Mustangs into the ETO while pushing the other two out.
Lastly I hope you don't think I was being rude. While I can be unbelievably sarcastic/ obnoxious (reference the previously mentioned time in fighter squadrons) it was not in the least my intent.
Cheers,
Biff
michael rauls
Tech Sergeant
- 1,679
- Jul 15, 2016
No i didn't think you were being rude at all. And as i have said i certainly think it was the superior of the three planes. I don't think anyone really doubt s that. I do think however when it comes at least to the two often used quips about it in popular press( no need to rehash those now) it is overrated. At least when it comes to those two specific things. That is completely different than saying it wasn't a great plane. It was. That was why I picked it for the topoc of the thread. I'm learning that it's verry hard for people to hear the word overrated without making that synonymous with bad in there minds. Even Mohamed Ahli could be overrated beyond how good he really was. That was my only point. On this next one I will of course defer to your expertise but werent the L series p38s fairly competitive? With the hydrolic assist i have read the had verry good high speed roll rates and with the dive flaps well let me try and quote a p38 pilot as close as I can from memory" it was good to see a p38 chase a 109 straight down to the deck" and the 474th racked up an almost 5 to 1 kill ratio from mid 44(cant remember the exact month right now) on. And that last one is research I did do myself. Considering the most common mission profile of the p38 during this time it seems to me thats nothing to sneez at so to speek. Just seems from what limited knowledge i have that p38 f to j and j25 to L are two different animals. You certainly have more expertise than i but just my thoughts from what i have read and the limited research i have done.
wuzak
Captain
The P-38L with hydraulic assisted ailerons had high roll rates, but slow responsiveness.
Inertia is a bitch.
Inertia is a bitch.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,034
- Jun 25, 2013
I think one could make a case for many aircraft being over-rated, whether made by any of the belligerents. The OP's poll isn't whether Aircraft X is overrated, but which is most overrated. The P-51 may be overrated, but I think it's a far stretch to claim that is the most overrated.
drgondog
Major
I believe that I gave you a pretty good reading list above.
That said page 283 in Dean's 100K is entirely devoted to the latest P-47D Combat Radius compared to P-47N. Further, Dean made a mistake in listing the 'square' plot starting with the P-47D-23 and citing it as having 370 gallons of fuel, which it did Not have. The -23 range was the same as the -15 with 305 gallons internal and 375 gallons external. It was first delivered to AAF in late March 1944 and only 89 were made, which is irrelevant to the discussion as it couldn't escort to Berlin either.
Dean's table for internal fuel lists only "P-47D" w/o Model number in comparison with P-47N. He didn't make many mistakes but you picked one for reference. Another comment worth noting is that the Yardstick Range and Combat Radius cited is for 10,000 feet, not 25K which is 15-20% less range.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Speaking of letting things slide, perhaps, as an example, posting things like, and I quote:
as if this were etched in stone and the issue settled with no further debate necessary elicited a rather persnickety response on my part. If this ruffled your feathers I'd grow a thicker skin. Although I will refrain from being a d!ck from now on.
Much of what you've been posting has been refuted (even before you got here actually) but such pronouncements keep coming. I must confess, I've tried to keep up with your myriad posts but I've stopped because:
A). Much of what you're arguing I've already seen debunked here.
B). There's a key on the right side of your keyboard, it is marked "Enter", try using that a few times between sentences to make your points a bit more readable please.
There may actually be valid arguments/info in your posts but solid walls of text are headache inducing and I will not slog through them.
Also if you're honestly willing to set aside preconceived notions and LISTEN to what some are saying here I'll help in any way possible. My suggestion is to start with reading whatever drgondog suggests if you want the scoop on these issues. Between him and Parsifal's (among others) suggested readings, you can find out what you really "know" and don't know.
That's about as cordial as I can get.
Bowing out now to let cooler and more knowledgeable heads prevail.
as if this were etched in stone and the issue settled with no further debate necessary elicited a rather persnickety response on my part. If this ruffled your feathers I'd grow a thicker skin. Although I will refrain from being a d!ck from now on.
Much of what you've been posting has been refuted (even before you got here actually) but such pronouncements keep coming. I must confess, I've tried to keep up with your myriad posts but I've stopped because:
A). Much of what you're arguing I've already seen debunked here.
B). There's a key on the right side of your keyboard, it is marked "Enter", try using that a few times between sentences to make your points a bit more readable please.
There may actually be valid arguments/info in your posts but solid walls of text are headache inducing and I will not slog through them.
Also if you're honestly willing to set aside preconceived notions and LISTEN to what some are saying here I'll help in any way possible. My suggestion is to start with reading whatever drgondog suggests if you want the scoop on these issues. Between him and Parsifal's (among others) suggested readings, you can find out what you really "know" and don't know.
That's about as cordial as I can get.
Bowing out now to let cooler and more knowledgeable heads prevail.
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drgondog
Major
This is a great opportunity to use the map as an illustration of a P-51B LR escort to Berlin. On the 29th April, 1944, the 355th made R/V at Cuxhaven to perform target escort from there to Berlin and back. Cuxhaven is on coast north of Bremerhaven. From there to Uelzen/Wittenburg and thence to Brelin, around the target and back to west of Brunswick where P-47D's were picked up for Withdrawal Support. P-47Ds made the Penetration escort from UK to Cuxhaven.
Total escort time was 2:40 minutes before B/E near Brunswick. Load out 269 gallons internal fuel plus 2x75 gallon combat tanks. Total mission time 6:05 hours.
Note that the Penetration Escort radius from center East Anglia to Cuxhaven (short of Denmark) is about 60% of the way to Berlin, and same for Withdrawal support. Three escort legs only - which was common.
A comparable P-51B mission before 110 gallon tanks to Ruhland, se of Berlin, and Posnan, Poland - both 6:20+ missions. Dad's mission to Piryatin, Ukraine for Shuttle Mission was 7:55. Of his 72 total P-51B/D missions, 20 ranged from 5 hours to nearly 8 hours.
Where Rauls fails so many times in making his points is a.) lack of timeline awareness when quoting performance characteristics of P-47D/38J, b.) interpretation of published tables based on (presumably) lack of both engineering knowledge regarding analysis and testing for Maximum Range versus Combat Radius, and/or context to understand them. He is further handicapped by lack of awareness to the tactical disposition of 8th AF assets during the planning and execution process for escorted bomber missions.
I think we are all quite comfortable in his opinion that the Mustang is over rated but his ability to extract facts from sources that we all agree with has been non-existent.
Notice the dramatic increase in Lw losses with the introduction of the P-51 escorts.
Strategy for Defeat: The Luftwaffe 1933-1945
Strategy for Defeat: The Luftwaffe 1933-1945
drgondog
Major
Wuzak - I agree your salient point about change in %. That context however, is largely an investment/loss discussion relative to a war of attrition. My view is that the LW was nearly able to carve out the same magnitude of losses in different missions as they achieved July 1943 through October 1943 - which is still a morale issue and certainly doesn't point to Lost Effectiveness of lethality of LW when they hit unescorted boxes before continued attrition made them less and less effective into the summer/fall of 1944.
For specific examples I would point to March 6, 8 and April 29 as very gloomy days for the relatives of some 1800 flight crews that were not consoled by a reduction in % loss rate.
drgondog
Major
Very good illustration example. Conversely look at the relatively Small increase in LW losses between Period Jan-June 1943, and Jul-Dec 1943, when the P-47C/D force dramatically increased and the P-38 was re-introduced to ETO
