MOST OVERRATED AIRCRAFT OF WWII

[RCAFson]

Just what the Hurricane pilots needed, less power for take-off and less power at altitude.
Why not just shoot the Pilots as they lined up next to their planes and save the gas ???

C'mon that's a bit extreme.
The Hurricane was essentially a low altitude ground attack aircraft from 1942 onward. I'm sure that Hurricane pilots would have preffered to fly with the Allison if they had Merlin engined Mustangs as an escort.

 

[RCAFson]

The problem with that is that the RAF were desperate for every airplane they could lay their hands on - especially fighters. Its teh reason the Hurricane remained in production and that the Spitfire went from Mk II to Mk V since going to the superior Mk III would have cost too much production.

Changing the Hurricane to the V-1710 would surely have cost more production than the change from Hurricane I to Hurricane II.

Also, I'm not sure the production of the V-1710 at the period in question was sufficient to support Hurricane production. Which would mean even fewer aircraft for the RAF.

It also makes the supply line very vulnerable. Shipping Merlins west and Allisons east. Over the U-Boat hunting grounds. Sure, the British could have taken engine-less P-51s and installed the Merlins in the UK. But they would still have to ship V-1710s from the US to the UK.

The Hurricane was being produced in Canada with the first Canadian built aircraft flying in 1939 but production was hobbled due to the lack of Merlins. Hurricane production would have increased if some or all Cancar Hurricanes used Allisons,

 

[RCAFson]

Sir you jest, nothing could serve the allies better than putting Allisons into Hurricanes, what the Brits really needed was to introduce a new engine, the ground crews were bored and needed amusement and the supply chain was under used

That's why, in 1941, the RAF introduced the Allison engined P-40 into North Africa...

 

[gjs238]

That's why, in 1941, the RAF introduced the Allison engined P-40 into North Africa...

But they preferred the Merlin engined P-40.

 

[Shortround6]

The R-2800 had a rather tortured development and it wasn't ready for volume production until 1942 (and not really then), unlike the Merlin which had been in volume production from 1937. You can't expect Ford to mass produce an engine that was still in design and development.

Ah, not really.
P & W production for the R-2800 in 1941 was 1461 single stage A series engines, 2 single stage B series engines and 6 two stage B series engines.
Ford built 262 single stage A series engines in 1941 and 2 single stage B series engines.
Even early 1942 saw a flood of R-2800 engines coming out of the two factories,
Jan 1942 saw P& W build just 49 single stage A engines and that was the end of them, but 220 B series single stage engines. Ford in Jan of 1942 cranked out 229 A series engines and 36 B series (Ford never built a 2 stage engine unless it was equipped with a turbo).
Feb saw P & W build 349 single stage Bs and 5 two stage Bs while Ford built 238 A series and 63 B series.
March saw P & W build 358 single stage Bs and 15 two stage Bs while Ford built 225 A series and 150 B series.
Over 500 engines a month is hardly an engine still in design and development. By the fall of 1942 (say September) P & W was building around 500 R-2800s a month and Ford was building 640 a month and numbers were still rising.
Three reasons for large incenses in 1943 production for the R-2800 are not getting problems fixed but the facts that Nash-Kelvinator joined in as 3rd production source and the Ford plant was doubled in size (sq footage) to a capacity of 1600 engines a month and extra plants were built in Connecticut as feeder plants to supply the main factory. P & W production hitting over 800 engines month while building up to 1000 R-1830s a month at the same time.

It takes time to build and equip factories and train workers. Many times the American automotive plants were simply shuttered and management and many of the workers moved to new, specially equipped factories for war production. Or sometimes only part of the automobile plants were kept open to supply certain parts.
Just like you don't build tanks in car factories you don't build large aircraft engines in factories that built 3.3 liter cast iron 4 cylinder and 3.6 liter cast iron V-8s. You may be able to make some parts but trying to handle things like 400-500lb crankshaft forgings requires over head cranes that the auto engine factories either didn't have or only had in small numbers,

 

[Shortround6]

The Hurricane was being produced in Canada with the first Canadian built aircraft flying in 1939 but production was hobbled due to the lack of Merlins. Hurricane production would have increased if some or all Cancar Hurricanes used Allisons,

Allison built 24 engines in the first four months of 1940, things speeded up after that but there were only 138 Mustangs built in 1941. Any allocation of Allisons over and above that would have had to come from P-38, P-39 or P-40 production.
And using early Allisons (like the -39 used in the early Mustangs) means about 100-150 less hp at any given altitude or for take-off compared to the Merlin XX.
The 1325hp for take-off Allisons don't become available until well into 1942. May of 1942 for the P-40K and later for the A-36.

More but less capable aircraft doesn't really seem like a good plan.

 

[GrauGeist]

One other thing to consider: in addition to Packard producing the V-1650, they also produced engines for U.S. boats equipped with the M-5200 series engine, such as: the PT Boat, the USAAF rescue boats and the British Vosper. They also produced spare engines and parts for Canadian, British and Russian boats, too.

 

[RCAFson]

Ah, not really.
P & W production for the R-2800 in 1941 was 1461 single stage A series engines, 2 single stage B series engines and 6 two stage B series engines.
Ford built 262 single stage A series engines in 1941 and 2 single stage B series engines.
Even early 1942 saw a flood of R-2800 engines coming out of the two factories,
Jan 1942 saw P& W build just 49 single stage A engines and that was the end of them, but 220 B series single stage engines. Ford in Jan of 1942 cranked out 229 A series engines and 36 B series (Ford never built a 2 stage engine unless it was equipped with a turbo).
Feb saw P & W build 349 single stage Bs and 5 two stage Bs while Ford built 238 A series and 63 B series.
March saw P & W build 358 single stage Bs and 15 two stage Bs while Ford built 225 A series and 150 B series.
Over 500 engines a month is hardly an engine still in design and development. By the fall of 1942 (say September) P & W was building around 500 R-2800s a month and Ford was building 640 a month and numbers were still rising.
Three reasons for large incenses in 1943 production for the R-2800 are not getting problems fixed but the facts that Nash-Kelvinator joined in as 3rd production source and the Ford plant was doubled in size (sq footage) to a capacity of 1600 engines a month and extra plants were built in Connecticut as feeder plants to supply the main factory. P & W production hitting over 800 engines month while building up to 1000 R-1830s a month at the same time.

It takes time to build and equip factories and train workers. Many times the American automotive plants were simply shuttered and management and many of the workers moved to new, specially equipped factories for war production. Or sometimes only part of the automobile plants were kept open to supply certain parts.
Just like you don't build tanks in car factories you don't build large aircraft engines in factories that built 3.3 liter cast iron 4 cylinder and 3.6 liter cast iron V-8s. You may be able to make some parts but trying to handle things like 400-500lb crankshaft forgings requires over head cranes that the auto engine factories either didn't have or only had in small numbers,

Which R-2800 powered fighter was combat ready in 1942?

Ford started later with the R-2800 and got it into production sooner than the Packard Merlin, but the first B series R-2800 wasn't built by P&W until Dec 1941, almost 2 years later than the first RR Merlin XX. The A series engines were useless for fighters so Ford was slowed by the development of the engine where Packard had a fully developed design to work with. Why would Ford or P&W produce R-2800 variants that their customers didn't want?

None of the R-2800 powered fighters were combat ready before mid 1943 because the R-2800 just wasn't fully developed before then. AFAIK, R-2800 engine production matched demand

 

[RCAFson]

Allison built 24 engines in the first four months of 1940, things speeded up after that but there were only 138 Mustangs built in 1941. Any allocation of Allisons over and above that would have had to come from P-38, P-39 or P-40 production.
And using early Allisons (like the -39 used in the early Mustangs) means about 100-150 less hp at any given altitude or for take-off compared to the Merlin XX.
The 1325hp for take-off Allisons don't become available until well into 1942. May of 1942 for the P-40K and later for the A-36.

More but less capable aircraft doesn't really seem like a good plan.

So a Merlin engined Mustang is less capable than a Hurricane? If all Allisons allocated to the Mustang were given to Cancar for Hurricanes, then there could have been sizable numbers of Merlin XX engined Mustangs in 1941/42.

 

[stona]

If all Allisons allocated to the Mustang were given to Cancar for Hurricanes, then there could have been sizable numbers of Merlin XX engined Mustangs in 1941/42.

Wouldn't any Merlin XX freed up have gone into the Lancaster, Halifax, maybe Beaufighter etc ?

Cheers

Steve

 

[wuzak]

So a Merlin engined Mustang is less capable than a Hurricane? If all Allisons allocated to the Mustang were given to Cancar for Hurricanes, then there could have been sizable numbers of Merlin XX engined Mustangs in 1941/42.

No, an Allison engined Hurricane is less capable than a Merlin XX engined Hurricane.

There weren't a "sizeable number" of Mustangs available in 1941/42, regardless of the engines that powered them.

 

[wuzak]

Wouldn't any Merlin XX freed up have gone into the Lancaster, Halifax, maybe Beaufighter etc ?

Cheers

Steve

Agreed. They tended to go into bombers first.

Also, don't forget the Mosquito.

 

[Shortround6]

Which R-2800 powered fighter was combat ready in 1942?

Ford started later with the R-2800 and got it into production sooner than the Packard Merlin, but the first B series R-2800 wasn't built by P&W until Dec 1941, almost 2 years later than the first RR Merlin XX. The A series engines were useless for fighters so Ford was slowed by the development of the engine where Packard had a fully developed design to work with. Why would Ford or P&W produce R-2800 variants that their customers didn't want?

None of the R-2800 powered fighters were combat ready before mid 1943 because the R-2800 just wasn't fully developed before then. AFAIK, R-2800 engine production matched demand

Changing the argument?
You said the the R-2800 wasn't ready in 1942,
In fact this is what you said;
"The R-2800 had a rather tortured development and it wasn't ready for volume production until 1942 (and not really then)"

Which is obviously false.
Now you want to claim it was "fighter" Versions of the R-2800 that weren't ready? and until mid 1943?

You are confusing service introduction with production ready which is two totally different things.
The US simply didn't build fighters powered by single stage R-2800s because they had the time to develop (or took it) the fighters with two stage engines.
P & W built 1019 two stage R-2800s in 1942. That doesn't quite sound like the engine wasn't ready to me.
Nash built 6 in Dec of 1942.

By the end of 1942 they built 532 P-47s (OK most of them weren't combat ready) and 178 Corsairs and 10 Hellcats.
By the end of June 1943 Republic had built another 1412 P-47s, Vought had built 583 F4Us and Grumman had built 609 F6Fs.
Planes rolling out factory doors in the US are months away from entering combat in battle zones thousands of miles away.
By the end of June 1943 Nash had built 437 R-2800 two stage engines (Nash would build only 2 stage engines ) and would build 2692 by years end.
P & W built 2071 two stage R-2800s in the first 6 months of 1943 so it certainly doesn't sound like a shortage of engines was the problem.

As far as this sentence goes "Ford started later with the R-2800 and got it into production sooner than the Packard Merlin, but the first B series R-2800 wasn't built by P&W until Dec 1941, almost 2 years later than the first RR Merlin XX."

Depends on what you mean by production I guess. Packard built 2 engines in Sept of 1941, Ford built 0, October saw Packard build 5 engines and Ford 1, Nov saw Packard build 10 engines and Ford build 99. Dec 1941 through March of 1942 Saw Ford outproduce Packard after which Packard built more engines in any given month most of the time through the end of 1944.
"Starting" dates for both companies are a little grey with official contracts or transfers of funds being within days of each other but both companies doing some preliminary work at least several weeks in advance of the "official" date. Packard certainly didn't have a -2-3 month head start.
As to how ready the B series R-2800 was, that can be answered by the production numbers, While P & W built only 2 in Dec of 1941 (along with 6 two stage "B" s) they built 220 in Jan and 359 in Feb. Jan saw the end of production of the A model in East Hartford.

I never knew that that the RR Merlin XX engine was in production in Dec of 1939??

You are also confusing production engines with experimental or development engines. P & W had completed 100 hours of development testing and 180 hours of endurance testing on the "B" series as of May 24th, 1940. By August of 1940 a Bill of materials had been released to the Production dept for the B series engine, Ford got the Bill of Materials for the "B" series engine on Oct 17th 1940, This was the same date that the 150 hour model test for the two stage engine started.

It takes time to bring an engine into production, lots of time and most factories took almost a year from first engine out the door to reaching anything near full capacity.

 

[drgondog]

From the "go date' between BPC and NAA, given the AAF indifference to the Mustang, there is no scenario that I can think of that would result in more P-51 airframes in 1941-1942.

NAA needed the investment decision by AAF made in April 1942 to occur in April 1940 to stimulate the production planning, training, and tooling to drive the production efficiency achieved in late 1943.

 

[stona]

Agreed. They tended to go into bombers first.

Also, don't forget the Mosquito.

Indeed, it was the allocation of the Merlin XX that led to the demise of the Spitfire III. Vickers-Armstrong (Supermarine) were told by the Air Council Subcommittee on Supply that the engine would not be available on 28th May 1940.
This did lead indirectly to the Merlin 45 and Spitfire V, so it could have been worse
Cheers
Steve

 

[gjs238]

One other thing to consider: in addition to Packard producing the V-1650, they also produced engines for U.S. boats equipped with the M-5200 series engine, such as: the PT Boat, the USAAF rescue boats and the British Vosper. They also produced spare engines and parts for Canadian, British and Russian boats, too.

I think you meant to type M-2500

 

[GrauGeist]

I think you meant to type M-2500

yes, that was a typo...I could perhaps blame the ipad's keyboard, but it's probably more dyslexia than anything

The marine engines Packard produced during the war were:
3M-2500
4M-2500
5M-2500

And contrary to popular belief, these were not based on the RR Merlin, but the Liberty L-12 that had it's roots in WWI.

 

[Shortround6]

The marine engines Packard produced during the war were:
3M-2500
4M-2500
5M-2500

And contrary to popular belief, these were not based on the RR Merlin, but the Liberty L-12 that had it's roots in WWI.

Actually they were pretty much a clean piece of paper design. Aside from being a V-12 and having an overhead cam there wasn't a much in common between the Liberty and the Packard. Packard had built Liberty engines in WW I and the Packards were pretty good Liberty engines, quality varied tremendously between different suppliers. But Packard figured they could do better in the 1920s and built about 250 of the 1500 cu in Packard engine and about 330-335 of the 2500 cu in aircraft engines.

Please note that the weight given for the PT boat engines may include the clutch/gearbox.

 

[RCAFson]

Changing the argument?
You said the the R-2800 wasn't ready in 1942,
In fact this is what you said;
"The R-2800 had a rather tortured development and it wasn't ready for volume production until 1942 (and not really then)"

Which is obviously false.
Now you want to claim it was "fighter" Versions of the R-2800 that weren't ready? and until mid 1943?

You are confusing service introduction with production ready which is two totally different things.
The US simply didn't build fighters powered by single stage R-2800s because they had the time to develop (or took it) the fighters with two stage engines.
P & W built 1019 two stage R-2800s in 1942. That doesn't quite sound like the engine wasn't ready to me.
Nash built 6 in Dec of 1942.

By the end of 1942 they built 532 P-47s (OK most of them weren't combat ready) and 178 Corsairs and 10 Hellcats.
By the end of June 1943 Republic had built another 1412 P-47s, Vought had built 583 F4Us and Grumman had built 609 F6Fs.
Planes rolling out factory doors in the US are months away from entering combat in battle zones thousands of miles away.
By the end of June 1943 Nash had built 437 R-2800 two stage engines (Nash would build only 2 stage engines ) and would build 2692 by years end.
P & W built 2071 two stage R-2800s in the first 6 months of 1943 so it certainly doesn't sound like a shortage of engines was the problem.

As far as this sentence goes "Ford started later with the R-2800 and got it into production sooner than the Packard Merlin, but the first B series R-2800 wasn't built by P&W until Dec 1941, almost 2 years later than the first RR Merlin XX."

Depends on what you mean by production I guess. Packard built 2 engines in Sept of 1941, Ford built 0, October saw Packard build 5 engines and Ford 1, Nov saw Packard build 10 engines and Ford build 99. Dec 1941 through March of 1942 Saw Ford outproduce Packard after which Packard built more engines in any given month most of the time through the end of 1944.
"Starting" dates for both companies are a little grey with official contracts or transfers of funds being within days of each other but both companies doing some preliminary work at least several weeks in advance of the "official" date. Packard certainly didn't have a -2-3 month head start.
As to how ready the B series R-2800 was, that can be answered by the production numbers, While P & W built only 2 in Dec of 1941 (along with 6 two stage "B" s) they built 220 in Jan and 359 in Feb. Jan saw the end of production of the A model in East Hartford.

I never knew that that the RR Merlin XX engine was in production in Dec of 1939??

You are also confusing production engines with experimental or development engines. P & W had completed 100 hours of development testing and 180 hours of endurance testing on the "B" series as of May 24th, 1940. By August of 1940 a Bill of materials had been released to the Production dept for the B series engine, Ford got the Bill of Materials for the "B" series engine on Oct 17th 1940, This was the same date that the 150 hour model test for the two stage engine started.

It takes time to bring an engine into production, lots of time and most factories took almost a year from first engine out the door to reaching anything near full capacity.

The Merlin was combat ready before 1939. The two stage/turbo versions of the R2800 were not combat ready until 1943 nor were their associated fighters, mainly due to engine problems. Consequently, Ford could not ramp up to full production as the assembly line was constantly being altered. Every B series engine produced before 1943 probably ended up on the scrap heap before ever seeing combat, along with their early variant aircraft.

This is a look at the severe problems associated with R-2800 development.
http://www.enginehistory.org/NoShortDays/Development of the R-2800 Crankshaft.pdf

Comparing Packard building a developed design versus Ford building a design in development is not a straightforward look at numbers of engines built. Additionally the 18 cylinder R-2800 was a very complex design.

 

[RCAFson]

Changing the argument?


I never knew that that the RR Merlin XX engine was in production in Dec of 1939??

First build of a production engine doesn't imply that it was ready for volume production. There was a lengthy gap between first builds and volume production.