MOST OVERRATED AIRCRAFT OF WWII

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We are getting rather far afield but tank engines are a special breed unto themselves. The weight of tank engine is not particularity important compared to an aircraft engine. However size/volume is very important to a tank engine or more correctly the size/volume of the engine installation is very important.
The Original Shermans using using Wright (or Continental built Wrights) 9 cylinder radial engines were shorter in length than the liquid cooled versions. the weight of the armor used to cover the extra length of the hull (steel is roughly 40lbs per sq ft of 1in/25.4mm thickness) can easily out weigh the difference between two different engines.
I would note that the 250hp engine referred to by Wiki was a 7 cylinder Continental radial used in the light tanks. The M2/M3/M4 were based on the 975 cu in Wright Whirlwind 9 cylinder radial and the M6 heavy tank used the 1820 cu in Wright Cyclone 9 cylinder radial but they didn't want to use B-17 (Or SBD dive bomber)engines in tanks.
You also have to figure the actual width of the available engine compartments and the ability to service the engine/s. The Grant/Sherman being designed for the radial did have a wide and high engine compartment. While the air cooled engines requires fans and ducts they were smaller than the fans/ducts and radiators needed for liquid cooled engines. Not to mention air cooled engines didn't have the coolant leak problems the liquid cooled engines did.
Need for an 800hp engine for a 35 ton tank was much more theoretical than practical. Once you have left paved roads behind the cross country ability of a tank is dependent on the suspension and the ability of the crew to survive repeated impacts against the interior of the tank. :lol:
A Demonstration of an early British tank for the King of England during WW I left a large part of the crew unconscious after about a 4mph impact. Tank went very nose high climbing an obstacle and the ensuing drop threw the crew around.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_0i_g2PpEU
 
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Didn't the use of radial engines in tanks create relatively tall tanks due to the height of the driveshaft?
 
A quick list of U.S. engines used in American AFVs:
Cadillac series 42
Cadillac series 44
Cadillac 4T24
Caterpillar D-200
Chrysler A57
Continental R-670
Continental R-975
Ford GAA
Ford GAF
General Motors 6046
Guiberson T-1020
Hercules JXD
International Harvester RED-450
Lycoming O-435
Studebaker 6-170
White 160AX
Wright G-200
 
Considering the Ford engines didn't power anything past the M26 Pershing in the heavy/medium tank line.

I actually wasn't trying to be snarky, I had a thought in mind when I started this post and someone came into my office, (geez, aren't I paying these guys to fix problems?) and hit the "Post" button out of habit. I was going to elaborate on tank engines a bit but SR6 did a much better job than I would be able to do.

1. Sorry gjs, didn't mean to come off as a bit of a jerk, my apologies.

2. Thanks SR6, you've pretty much nailed what I wanted to say before being rudely interrupted (by work of all things).

Thanks for your patience.
 
Didn't the use of radial engines in tanks create relatively tall tanks due to the height of the driveshaft?
Yes, no and maybe.
tumblr_nmnoheozqO1thuhcdo1_1280.jpg

m4a2cross.jpg

Given the front transmission and the need for the drive shaft to run under the fighting compartment (or through it as it was in a tunnel/hump) I am not sure that the type of engine affected the overall height by more than a few inches, The US also used the space on each side of the drive shaft for storage. The Sherman carried over twice the MG ammo as a German MK IV tank.
I don't know if they just filled up the empty space or if the storage requirements carried over from the M2/M3 tanks and so low height wasn't a priority.
 
Unlike the German tanks, or the M18 tank destroyer, the M3 and M4 mediums did not used the intermediate gearbox that lowered the driveshaft, and hence the hull. M18 used the radial engine plus that gerbox, the hull was consideraby low slung.
 
Thank you Tomo.
I would note that it was quite common for engine production to run ahead of airframe production by a number of months.
On-time control of inventory didn't really become a big thing in industry until the 1960s if not later. Given WW II transportation (mostly rail) having several weeks in not a couple of months worth of engines in stock wasn't considered excessive. It could take a number of weeks for a single airframe to make it from start to finish even if dozens were being rolled out the door every week so a plant working on multi engine aircraft could have dozens of engines on the floor in semi finished airframes at any given time.
id_bomber_b26_02_700.jpg
 
I find this interesting because we were recently discussing the Packard engines used in the PT boats.
Packard 1A-2500 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
These engines were developed through the 20's and 30's and seemingly could have been what Devers was looking for.
Of course, the Wiki article could be wrong - something we keep running into.

I have seen a Packard V2500 in a museum. There were no other engines to compare it to but it did seem a big (particulary tall) engine a good bit larger than a Meteor. Of course now I have just doomed myself and someone will post the figures to prove the V2500 was about as big as a tin of beans.
 
I have seen a Packard V2500 in a museum. There were no other engines to compare it to but it did seem a big (particulary tall) engine a good bit larger than a Meteor. Of course now I have just doomed myself and someone will post the figures to prove the V2500 was about as big as a tin of beans.
No worries, you're safe! :lol:

The 4M-2500 was a beast.

Here is by far, one of the best illustrations I have ever seen regarding the 4M-2500, and may help give you an idea of it's dimensions:
(you can click on the image to see it full resolution)
Packard_4M-2500_specs.gif
 

Ok, so I underestimated B-26 production but I overestimated C-46 production. Anyways, considering 1942 fighter aircraft production:
P47 532
F4U 178
F6F 12

and adding in B-26 production we can see that there about 2700-2800 R-2800 installations versus about 10,000 R-2800s built in 1942. There was a rather large surplus of engines in 1942 and probably not that much pressure to produce more. Subsequent to 1942 R-2800 production seems to have kept pace with airframe production.
 
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Just to add a few comments.

Ford were involved in three separate projects with the Merlin.

1) USA - Edsel did a deal to make Merlins that was scuppered by old man Henry - but they got a good look a the plans!

Edsel Ford agrees to manufacture Rolls-Royce engines for war effort - Jun 12, 1940 - HISTORY.com

There are lots of explanations - leaving aside Henry's questionable politics - he was probably delighted to wind up Knudsen, who had left him and done a superb job at GM

2) Ford France were asked to manufacture it at their "Fordair" plant in Bordaux but RR realised that they were not realistic after a huge amount of perliminary work had been done.

3) Ford's Trafford plant at Manchester made some 34,000 Merlins and Hooker reckoned they were some of the best made anywhere - and built to finer tolerances on specialised tooling

Ford Trafford Park Factory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, if Henry Ford had really wanted to he could have made Merlins in the US - or probably produced a superb aero engine - he just didn't want to!
 
Still haven't seen any reference or source for scraping R-2800s prior to 1943 or scraping any airframes associated with them.
Nothing about how troubled the R-2800 program was in 1940-41-42.
The "C" series engines were higher powered and had a higher rpm limit and used a different crankshaft (and everything else) than the A&B so troubles or tests on the "C" series engine doesn't mean anything for the A&B.
150 Vickers Warwick's with R-2800s were ordered in Dec of 194O and hundreds of Lockheed Ventura's, B-34s and B-37s were also ordered in multiple contracts during 1940 and 1941: deliveries really didn't get going on some of these until 1942 although the first Ventura I was turned over to the British in Sept 1941. Army relinquished most of their orders to the Navy and the first Navy PV-1s were delivered in Dec 1942. Production of the Lockheeds is hard to track.
 
We're still only looking at ~3000 engine installations by Dec 1942 versus ~10,000 engines produced.
 
We're still only looking at ~3000 engine installations by Dec 1942 versus ~10,000 engines produced.

Wouldnt engine and other component production be several months ahead of airframe production. I believe engines were bought by and supplied by the government to the airframe manufacturer as required which would mean a good stock of engines would be needed before the airframe production line could be started.
 
Let's get back to aircraft designs, and on that note

Why was the Spitfire considered overrated? It had a remarkable rate of turn, a high top-speed, one of the best top speeds in dives?
 
Wouldnt engine and other component production be several months ahead of airframe production. I believe engines were bought by and supplied by the government to the airframe manufacturer as required which would mean a good stock of engines would be needed before the airframe production line could be started.
No doubt, but by December 1942 the R-2800 was being produced well above the airframes delivery rate in early 1943, which amounted to ~5000 F4U and F6F, and 4400 P-47s plus 2400 B-26s and maybe a thousand other twin engined aircraft, for the entire year. So we have demand for 16000-18000 engines, which was about equal to or less than 1943 production.
 

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