Most overrated german plane?

[special ed]

If I may throw in a bit of trivia from a book, one reason the German intel believed their spies rather than the V-1 transponder (post 86 and 89) was because the British convinced all of the newspapers to give erroneous reports of V-1 hits, confirming what the double agents reported.

 

[tyrodtom]

Transponders or accurate spy reports of where the V1's were impacting one day isn't going to help much on where to aim them the next day. The wind speed and direction changes daily, and that has a tremendous effect on a missile that spends it's entire flight time at lower altitudes.

The weather has almost no effect on a V2 however, the spy reports and transponders would help adjust their aim.
But by late in the war most of the German agents in Britain had either been turned, or hung.

 

[special ed]

According to more than one book and also several videos, the British claim all German agents were captured and turned, in exchange for their lives. This, then, leaves the question why was the newspaper cooperation necessary. On a separate question, not exactly in line with this thread, I would like to know what happened to the Zero in Atlanta which was on exhibit in a house which was in an area of downtown going commercial. I was sent to Atlanta for eight weeks training with my company and on free time and weekends walked around downtown(no car). In an area of light business, were some old row houses and one had a sign that claimed " See a Zero shot down at Pearl Harbor". Being young and naive, I thought I would see it someday. This was 1966 and it was there at least three more trips until about 68 or 69 when the whole area was knocked down to put up buildings. I still regret the procrastination. Does anyone remember this?

 

[Ivan1GFP]

If I may throw in a bit of trivia from a book, one reason the German intel believed their spies rather than the V-1 transponder (post 86 and 89) was because the British convinced all of the newspapers to give erroneous reports of V-1 hits, confirming what the double agents reported.

Hello Special Ed,
That sounds very much in line with the rest of British influence over their own media reporting.
Another example is during the Battle of Britain in which the inflated claims of British pilots was reported as fact even though a simple count of the crashed aircraft would suggest that the exchange rate was much closer. This is not to take anything away from the British pilots who fought the battle. From what I have seen, just about all victory claims are inflated, usually by a factor of about 3 claims to one actual kill.


Hello GrauGeist,
Regardng He-100, one has to wonder if there was some other reason (a valid performance reason) why the He-100 was not developed.
Regardless of the limitations on engine production, it seems to me that it would have been a good candidate for the successor to the Me 109 if not the FW 190 and until production actually got underway, it would not have required a significant number of engines.
Who knows, perhaps it would eventually have been developed with a JuMo 213?

- Ivan.

 

[GrauGeist]

Hello GrauGeist,
Regardng He-100, one has to wonder if there was some other reason (a valid performance reason) why the He-100 was not developed.
Regardless of the limitations on engine production, it seems to me that it would have been a good candidate for the successor to the Me 109 if not the FW 190 and until production actually got underway, it would not have required a significant number of engines.
Who knows, perhaps it would eventually have been developed with a JuMo 213?

- Ivan.

There's been speculation that Heinkel was having political issues with the RLM, but the facts don't really bear this out. Heinkel, in his own memoirs seemed a little bitter toward the RLM, both for the He100's fate and the He280's failure to be adopted.
This bitterness may have been aimed more at the RLM's inability to seize and act on opportunities early on more than anything.
In regards to the engine supply issue, Daimler was manufacturing their DB600 series more as a cottage industry than a mass-manufacturer and their output didn't really ramp up in earnest until later on.
This saw quite a few types that were designed around the DB601 wither on the vine as the engines were ear-marked for the Bf109/Bf110.
Otherwise, types like the Fw187, He100 and Bf162 may have had a chance.

As far as the Jumo goes, the He100 was designed specifically for the installation of the Daimler engine and altering it to accept a Jumo211 would require an extensive and costly redesign.

 

[swampyankee]

Transponders or accurate spy reports of where the V1's were impacting one day isn't going to help much on where to aim them the next day. The wind speed and direction changes daily, and that has a tremendous effect on a missile that spends it's entire flight time at lower altitudes.

The weather has almost no effect on a V2 however, the spy reports and transponders would help adjust their aim.
But by late in the war most of the German agents in Britain had either been turned, or hung.

The brilliant XX program: "H! You have a choice: send the nazis what we tell you or be hanged as a spy or traitor."

 

[Ivan1GFP]

In regards to the engine supply issue, Daimler was manufacturing their DB600 series more as a cottage industry than a mass-manufacturer and their output didn't really ramp up in earnest until later on.
This saw quite a few types that were designed around the DB601 wither on the vine as the engines were ear-marked for the Bf109/Bf110.
Otherwise, types like the Fw187, He100 and Bf162 may have had a chance.

As far as the Jumo goes, the He100 was designed specifically for the installation of the Daimler engine and altering it to accept a Jumo211 would require an extensive and costly redesign.

Hello GrauGeist,
I had actually never heard of the Bf 162 before. From a quick read, it does not appear to offer that much of an advantage over existing types to justify production. The FW 187 and He 100, especially the He 100 as I see it (in hindsight) had more potential a the next generation single seat fighter.
I was thinking JuMo 213 as eventually installed in FW 190D, but that engine was off in the future and Junkers had pretty severe issues in trying to increase power, Who in 1941 would have predicted the eventual success of the JuMo 213 evolution of a "Bomber Engine"?
Perhaps an engine swap would have needed a bit of redesign, but it can't be any worse than the Ki 61 going from inline to radial or the FW 190 going from radial to a DB 603 and then a JuMo.

- Ivan.

 

[Ascent]

My understanding of the reporting of V1 hits was that they reported actual hits but were selective about which ones they reported.

Basically the ones that were accurate weren't reported but the ones that fell short were so the Germans gradually increased the range meaning that most overshot.

 

[pbehn]

My understanding of the reporting of V1 hits was that they reported actual hits but were selective about which ones they reported.

Basically the ones that were accurate weren't reported but the ones that fell short were so the Germans gradually increased the range meaning that most overshot.

That is a bit dishonest, is it allowed?

 

[tyrodtom]

There's more to hitting a target than just range, there's azimuth too.
And without accurate weather predictions, even a 150 mile flight can vary quite a bit from it's intended flight path.
But then the London metropolitan area was a pretty big target.

 

[pbehn]

There's more to hitting a target than just range, there's azimuth too.
And without accurate weather predictions, even a 150 mile flight can vary quite a bit from it's intended flight path.
But then the London metropolitan area was a pretty big target.

I think they were all targeted on Tower Bridge but only because it is in the centre of London.

 

[GrauGeist]

Hello GrauGeist,
I had actually never heard of the Bf 162 before. From a quick read, it does not appear to offer that much of an advantage over existing types to justify production. The FW 187 and He 100, especially the He 100 as I see it (in hindsight) had more potential a the next generation single seat fighter.
I was thinking JuMo 213 as eventually installed in FW 190D, but that engine was off in the future and Junkers had pretty severe issues in trying to increase power, Who in 1941 would have predicted the eventual success of the JuMo 213 evolution of a "Bomber Engine"?
Perhaps an engine swap would have needed a bit of redesign, but it can't be any worse than the Ki 61 going from inline to radial or the FW 190 going from radial to a DB 603 and then a JuMo.

- Ivan.

The Bf162 had potential but the Ju88 was able to use either inline or radials, whereas the Bf162 was designed around the DB600, like the Henschel Hs127 and these last two would require extensive refitting to accept a Jumo211.
The Ju88 V1 and V2's performance were impressive with the DB600, but again, the DB600 was in high demand, so V3, V4 and V5 were fitted with the Jumo211 as an alternative and the performance was acceptable.
It was later fitted with the Jumo213 and the BMW801.

 

[wuzak]

There's more to hitting a target than just range, there's azimuth too.
And without accurate weather predictions, even a 150 mile flight can vary quite a bit from it's intended flight path.
But then the London metropolitan area was a pretty big target.

If their range is off and they have no way of correcting, it doesn't really matter how accurate the azimuth is.

Weather reconnaissance was something also denied the Germans, at that stage of the war, because of the British defences and the war situation for Germany demanding a greater defensive emphasis.

 

[GregP]

The RLM did not like Ernst Heinkel ... it is well documented. His He 100 was not proceeded with largely because the Nazis in general, and the RLM in particular, were not fond of Ernst. He was a bit too independent and not very fond of the Nazi party, but they DID represent business. So, he did business with them. He would have preferred not to, but Germany was being run by them and, to sell in Germany at the time, meant selling to the Nazis.

 

[GrauGeist]

Heinkel was highly respected within the RLM and had quite a few of his types in service with the Luftwaffe (as well as the Japanese) ranging from trainers and transports to bombers...as has been stated, the high demand for the DB601 was what killed the He100.

The RLM told Heinkel that if he were to use the Jumo211 engine instead, they would be interested in the He100, but Heinkel declined because he felt it would require extensive work and would be inferior in performance.

And again, there simply weren't enough engines - none of Daimler's factories ever met the 300 engines per month goal.
Production totals for the DB600 are 2,281 units (1934 - 1937).
Production totals for the DB601x are 19,180 (1937 - 1943).

A good book that covers this is "German Aircraft Industry and Production" by Vajda & Dancey

 

[tyrodtom]

If their range is off and they have no way of correcting, it doesn't really matter how accurate the azimuth is.

That can be said of either, if the azimuth is off, it doesn't matter how accurate the range is.

 

[Ascent]

When I said about them reporting the short falls I meant the agents. If they reported a V1 going in where nothing had been hit and the Germans found out then they would have known their agent was compromised whereas if they just reported the ones that fell short, well they were actual hits so the Germans would know they were getting good intelligence. The fact they were only getting selective information probably wouldn't have occurred to them.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

When I said about them reporting the short falls I meant the agents. If they reported a V1 going in where nothing had been hit and the Germans found out then they would have known their agent was compromised whereas if they just reported the ones that fell short, well they were actual hits so the Germans would know they were getting good intelligence. The fact they were only getting selective information probably wouldn't have occurred to them.

This suggests that the dispersion along the major axis was extremely high if even after continually correcting for the targeting information that was supplied, they continued to have Buzz Bombs fall short.

- Ivan.

 

[swampyankee]

When I said about them reporting the short falls I meant the agents. If they reported a V1 going in where nothing had been hit and the Germans found out then they would have known their agent was compromised whereas if they just reported the ones that fell short, well they were actual hits so the Germans would know they were getting good intelligence. The fact they were only getting selective information probably wouldn't have occurred to them.

I wonder if the Germans figured out the existence of the XX program during WW2. On the other hand, if they had, would it have made a difference? If they can't tell if an agent who is sending them information is compromised, when does information supplied get so devalued as to be worthless?

Incidentally, the Germans tried something similar, but they used their intelligence personnel to impersonate captured spies (who had been tortured and killed). Since spies used telegraphy to transmit, the people at the receiving end knew that the information was compromised as people transmitting by Morse have individual styles -- their "fist" -- which is distinguishable by a skilled operator.

 

[Greyman]

An Operational Research Group study figured that 86% of bombs that landed did so within 30 miles of target centre.

Average range error was 4.6 miles, average line error was 6.2 miles (Bombs landing outside a 30 mile radius weren't counted in this average).

These figures were for the ground-launched weapons at an average of 140 miles to the target -- during Phase I of the flying bomb campaign (13 June to 5 September).