Most overrated german plane?

[Shortround6]

Tiger was unquestionably a backward step for the resilience of german armoured formations. Whilst individually these vehicles were peerless engineering marvels, well protected and requiring an inordinate expenditure of resources to deal with the, their individual unit costs, on a real basis, was such that they contributed to the dilution of strength for each of the panzer formations. Tiger was never an easy tank to build, never an easy tank to use and limited in several areas (notably range and mobility) that damned it to mediocrity throughout....................The tiger was probably one of the best heavy tanks of the war, but was not suited to the impoverished german Army 1942-45. There were definite penalties to numbers as a result of the tigers introduction. Moreover, whilst everyone was toying with the concept of a super heavy tank they fell out of favour after the war almost immediately in favour of the "main battle tank" which favoured an all round compromise between the often competing demands of protection, firepower and mobility. Whilst heavy tanks might concentrate on one or two of these facets at the expense of the other(s), this was found to be less than ideal after the war. Tiger was no exception to that.

answered in new thread here to avoid derailing this one.
Tiger tank from aircraft thread;

 

[Ivan1GFP]

Tiger was unquestionably a backward step for the resilience of german armoured formations. Whilst individually these vehicles were peerless engineering marvels, well protected and requiring an inordinate expenditure of resources to deal with the, their individual unit costs, on a real basis, was such that they contributed to the dilution of strength for each of the panzer formations. Tiger was never an easy tank to build, never an easy tank to use and limited in several areas (notably range and mobility) that damned it to mediocrity throughout its career.

Agreed on the reliability of Tiger tanks. The other issue that you hadn't mentioned was that when there was a breakdown, it takes a Tiger to tow a Tiger. This kind of thing is pretty normal for the introduction of any new weapon system though. The excellent Panther was no exception.
The big problem here was that the weapons carried by the Panzer III and Panzer IV were inadequate for the opposition especially on the Eastern front. The alternative was towed PAK or Sturmgeschutz and the like for any chance of killing even some of the early Russian heavies.

Cost is the first demerit of the tank. There will always be massive disagreements as to the final unit cost of the tiger. Suffice it to say it was exorbitant. Massively so….some sources suggest that at least 30 T-34s could be had for the same cost as a single Tiger I. Tigers are known to have an exchange rate of about 10:1 in battle, but those odds shortened considerably if total losses are compared. Many tigers were lost to mechanical breakdowns running out of fuel as the hordes of T-3s simply bypassed them.

Comparing the cost of the Tiger I to a Soviet T-34 is entirely unfair. The Germans never could have built even the T-34 at that kind of cost. From Wikipedia (yeah, my apologies), the cost of a Tiger appears to be about twice the cost of a Panther and a Panther is about 1.5 times the cost of the older Medium tanks, so the actual comparison of Tiger versus something like a Panzer IV would be about 3 to 1.
Along the same lines of general mechanical failure, the T-34 was not exactly a durable weapon either. It wasn't made to be.
Germany never could fight the war of attrition that the Soviets were willing to fight.

The second limitation affecting the Tiger was its very limited range….may 87 miles maximum. As suggested above, this led to many tigers simply being abandoned after running out of fuel and severely limited the type in any offensive roles

The third constraint affecting the type was its distinct lack of mobility. It had difficulty crossing may bridges, it suffered heavy losses in boggy terrain, it was never great in rough terrain

Other adverse issues was its slow turret traverse

No argument about slow turret traverse. Hopefully a good Tiger driver would realise there are other options such as pivoting the vehicle.
As for mobility, the weight caused problems without a doubt, but the ground pressure of a Tiger is actually not that high as compared to other tanks. Its cross country performance isn't particularly bad.
Every tank has issues in a bog. The wonderfully mobile Soviet T-34 didn't do well in that kind of situation either.

Your 87 Mile range is under very specific (probably cross country) conditions.
Range is certainly short, but actually quite comparable to other German tanks.
On roads, they just about all have a 120-140 mile range.
Panzer IV, Panther, Tiger, they are all about the same: short!

The tiger was probably one of the best heavy tanks of the war, but was not suited to the impoverished german Army 1942-45. There were definite penalties to numbers as a result of the tigers introduction. Moreover, whilst everyone was toying with the concept of a super heavy tank they fell out of favour after the war almost immediately in favour of the "main battle tank" which favoured an all round compromise between the often competing demands of protection, firepower and mobility. Whilst heavy tanks might concentrate on one or two of these facets at the expense of the other(s), this was found to be less than ideal after the war. Tiger was no exception to that.

With the situation in Germany in 1942, what would you propose be built instead of Tiger?
Panzer III was good for no more than self propelled guns at this point.
Panzer IV was armed with pop guns.
The Germans certainly had no hope of matching quantity or performance with existing mediums but at least with superior quality of a heavy and superior training of their crews, they had some small chance.

- Ivan.

 

[swampyankee]

Going away from tanks, one may consider that, by 1944, Germany had no chance of victory that didn't involve satanic intervention.

Any weapon development was somewhat akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Regarding the most over-rated, a title for which there is a lot of competition due to 70+ years of fanboys and myth, I'd place the Me163 near the top of the list.

 

[Dimlee]

Regarding V-1 and A-4(V-2) and costs.
David Irving's book "Mares Nest" contained some costs analysis of both programs.
(Yes, Irving is controversial, etc....).
I attach appendix from 2001 edition of that book.

 

[taly01]

I think David Irving ruffled feathers because he actually looked at archive documents himself in Germany and Russia rather than following the old known stories about WW2 and its personalities, many legends that dated back to the 1950's when the archives were closed. His book on 1945 Dresden bombing also showed a rather bad light on civilian area bombing by both RAF and USAAF in this case. The V1 and V2 program was also not a nice thing and probably kept British resolve to keep area bombing germany right till the end.

But from that document costs I get, (adding on cost of warhead & fuel to V1 as ~200GBP as that was not in the bill of construction.)

Lancaster loaded ~30,000 GBP (6 x 2000lb bombs)
V2 ~10,000 GBP (2200lb bomb)
V1 ~300 GBP (1900lb bomb)

Now certainly a Lancaster is best value with 6x the bomb load, known accuracy and re-usability unlike the V1/2, although it can be intercepted while the V2 cannot.

 

[ssnider]

I think David Irving ruffled feathers because he actually looked at archive documents himself in Germany and Russia rather than following the old known stories about WW2 and its personalities, many legends that dated back to the 1950's when the archives were closed. His book on 1945 Dresden bombing also showed a rather bad light on civilian area bombing by both RAF and USAAF in this case. The V1 and V2 program was also not a nice thing and probably kept British resolve to keep area bombing germany right till the end.

But from that document costs I get, (adding on cost of warhead & fuel to V1 as ~200GBP as that was not in the bill of construction.)

Lancaster loaded ~30,000 GBP (6 x 2000lb bombs)
V2 ~10,000 GBP (2200lb bomb)
V1 ~300 GBP (1900lb bomb)

Now certainly a Lancaster is best value with 6x the bomb load, known accuracy and re-usability unlike the V1/2, although it can be intercepted while the V2 cannot.

Seems like a lot of the associated costs of using the Lancaster is not included. For example the cost of crew training etc. prorated over expected life of the plane. Also a 2000 lb bomb cost about 100 GBP. It took about 1.7 tons of fuel to 1 ton of bombs. https://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstream/2123/664/2/adt-NU20050104.11440202whole.pdf

 

[taly01]

For example the cost of crew training etc. prorated over expected life of the plane

Good point, the V1 didn't need trained crews just a few techs and some tractor drivers LOL.

Actually this brings up the He162 Volksjager, supposedly built as a cheap fighter to be used by barely trained pilots, its hard to find any reference that they shot down more than a handful of planes.

 

[wuzak]

Good point, the V1 didn't need trained crews just a few techs and some tractor drivers LOL.

Actually this brings up the He162 Volksjager, supposedly built as a cheap fighter to be used by barely trained pilots, its hard to find any reference that they shot down more than a handful of planes.

Not sure that the He 162 was ever rated that highly,, certainly not enough to be overrated.

 

[Hansie Bloeckmann]

I think that diehard fanboys of Luftwaffe aircraft predate on-line games and even the Internet. Some of the fanboyism is definitely political, in that it is held by people who support Hitler's ideology.

I tend to agree--except for the pilot-less V series rockets used by Germany as the Allies were fast closing in-- we should remember that all the aircraft flown by the Axis and the Allies in the ETO were flown by humans, with all their flaws and strong suits thrown into the mix.. Germany lost a fair amount of their most experienced pilots early on in WW11- The Allies were able to draw upon pilots from: England, Canada, Australia, and after Dec. 1941, The USA. I wish to "tread lightly" here, when I venture a guess that the Luftwaffe was very surprised when the famed "Red Tail" P-51 Mustangs were piloted by men that their Nazi idealogy deemed to be inferior to Aryans- Jesse Owens in 1936 in Berlin non-withstanding--

 

[GrauGeist]

The Germans were being dealt a hard blow by "untermensche" long before they encountered Black personnel in the U.S. Army and Army Airforce, via Polish pilots in the RAF and by the Red Army and VVS.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

This is getting off toping again, but the policies and viewpoints of the Nazis was hardly consistent.
As many as 150,000 Jews and Germans of Jewish descent served in the German military and often rose to very high ranks.
One has to also wonder that if the other races were considered inferior, why did Germany support China up until their Japanese allies got upset about it. Why were they even allied with the Japanese to begin with?
Seems like just about every ethnic group had representation in the German SS units.

- Ivan.

 

[swampyankee]

On the other hand, the German military forces in France routinely murdered captured French soldiers of African descent.

 

[taly01]

when I venture a guess that the Luftwaffe was very surprised when the famed "Red Tail" P-51 Mustangs were piloted by men that their Nazi idealogy deemed to be inferior to Aryans---

The Tuskegee airman is maybe another thread for Over-rated combat units, instead of wartime hyper-inflated propaganda we now got it 50 years after that they never lost a bomber under their escort, AFAIK this myth started from a newspaper article back in WW2, the newspaper man probably saw no bombers were lost in a mission and it then became never-ever lost a bomber. At least 25 bombers being escorted by the Tuskegee Airmen over Europe during World War II were shot down. But I give full respect to the 66 Tuskegee Airmen that died in combat.

 

[Clayton Magnet]

Full respect to the Tuskegee unit, the obstacles and hardship they faced just GETTING to combat, was heroic enough. The myth that they shot down the first Me 262 seems to persist as well. But yes, that is another thread

 

[Clayton Magnet]

Would the He 100 count as over rated? It's performance was leaked, with much propaganda fan-fare, but achieved nothing. Besides posed photo's, neatly lined up on the airfield, painted in fictitious unit markings.

 

[BiffF15]

Would the He 100 count as over rated? It's performance was leaked, with much propaganda fan-fare, but achieved nothing. Besides posed photo's, neatly lined up on the airfield, painted in fictitious unit markings.

So does that mean it was fake news?

 

[GrauGeist]

The He100 would have competed for existing DB601 engine production that was earmarked for needed types like the Bf109 and Bf110.

Since the He100 was built around the DB600 series engine, it wouldn't have been feasible to redesign it for a Jumo, thus the type was cancelled.

Not sure how it can be seen as over rated. The Germans propagandized a great many things and the He100 was seen as a useful subject at the time.

 

[Clayton Magnet]

Not sure how it can be seen as over rated. The Germans propagandized a great many things and the He100 was seen as a useful subject at the time.

The type was eventually abandoned, but it did exist. And was proclaimed to be the greatest fighter in the world, capable of astonishing speeds. However in reality, it achieved nothing useful, and faded into obscurity. Perhaps it was deliberately over-rated by the Germans, as they had no intention of producing it, but it was over-rated none the less. Or maybe not.
I have always liked it, based on looks alone, and find it a shame that it wasn't developed further. Although the evaporative cooling system was a dead end for combat aircraft

 

[Clayton Magnet]

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say the He 113 was over rated?

 

[GrauGeist]

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say the He 113 was over rated?

lol...that may be more accurate!

In regards to the He100 (the real one), as I said before, it was a matter of not enough engines to go around.

The pre-production type did have incredible speed, but even once the conventional cooling replaced the evaporative system and weapons were added, it was still a top performing machine.

It's not that the Germans didn't want another fighter, it's just a matter of Daimler not being able tp keep up with the demand. The Fw190 was able to get the green light because it used the BMW132/801.

If we look at the early aircraft being developed, the majority planned on a DB600/601 powerplant at one point or another, but as has been mentioned already, Daimler simply couldn't keep up.

The He111 is a classic study on this, as they had nearly every type of engine germany produced fitted at one point or another, short of jet engines.