Most 'Underrated' Aircraft of WW2?

[Peter Gunn]

Fantastic photo, is the horizontal tail actually in the water as it appears?

As I recall, yes, the horizontal stabilizers are indeed awash, the photo was taken from the USS Tang, the Kingfisher pilot had rescued all those flyers but then could only taxi. The sub took all the flyers, Kingfisher pilot included and then sank the OS2U with cannon fire as it was damaged beyond what they could repair in the middle of the ocean if I recall correctly.

*EDIT*
As to the topic of the thread, "Most Underrated Aircraft of WWII"...
The Mustang of course, cripes it doesn't get nearly the credit/press it deserves for being the best long range escort fighter, best interceptor, best fighter bomber, best bomber, best transport, best torpedo bomber and for dropping the A-bomb to boot. /sarc.

 

[GrauGeist]

Fantastic photo, is the horizontal tail actually in the water as it appears?

Yes, it was!

 

[P-39 Expert]

Yes, it was!

Wow, yeoman's work done by that pilot and NINE very grateful passengers who just got their young asses snatched from the jaws of defeat. GREAT photo.

 

[GrauGeist]

Wow, yeoman's work done by that pilot and NINE very grateful passengers who just got their young asses snatched from the jaws of defeat. GREAT photo.

Lt. Burns and his Kingfisher actualy did more that day, including rescuing the pilot and crew of the other USS North Carolina Kingfisher when it overturned while landing to rescue downed aircrew.

From an article about the restoration of an OS2U for the USS North Carolina museum ship:
(See the full article here: Restoring History: The Kingfisher Seaplane on the USS North Carolina - Port City Signs)

The Rescue of 10 Men Off Truk, Micronesia
On April 30, 1944, the USS North Carolina was protecting aircraft carriers whose planes were assaulting Japanese encampments on Truk, a Micronesian island. Her Kingfishers were assigned rescue duty. That Sunday morning, Lt. J.J. Dowdle landed in Truk Lagoon to attempt a rescue. In the process, rough seas tipped over his plane.

Lt. John A. Burns, in his Kingfisher, made a safe water landing and rescued the two USS North Carolina airmen and the stranded pilot. He taxied to a submarine in the area, the USS Tang, to drop them off.

He and radioman Aubrey J. Gill flew away to search for three life rafts reported drifting off the island. Lt. Burns spotted a raft with a lone fighter pilot. He landed and the pilot climbed into radioman Gill's lap. It took two hours of taxiing around Truk Lagoon before finally locating the three-man crew of a torpedo plane. Now Burns' Kingfisher held six men.

Lt. Burns began to taxi through choppy seas towards the USS Tang, now 20 miles away. Two hours into their travels, the men came upon another raft with three aviators. Burns told them to tie their raft to the pontoon but the plan proved impractical forcing the men to climb onto the plane. Now, a plane built for two had 11 men on it. Two men sat on each wing to balance the plane and the other hung on the fuselage.

Six hours later, the plane reached the USS Tang. The Kingfisher's pontoon had ruptured and was out of fuel. Everyone boarded the submarine. The USS Tang's guns destroyed the plane.

The USS North Carolina lost both of her Kingfishers that day, but her heroic pilots rescued 10 men.

There's several other occasions where seaplanes were so overloaded, that they had to taxi to their destination, but this one is a great example of the contributions of seaplanes (from all nations) did during the war.

 

[P-39 Expert]

Lt. Burns and his Kingfisher actualy did more that day, including rescuing the pilot and crew of the other USS North Carolina Kingfisher when it overturned while landing to rescue downed aircrew.

From an article about the restoration of an OS2U for the USS North Carolina museum ship:
(See the full article here: Restoring History: The Kingfisher Seaplane on the USS North Carolina - Port City Signs)


There's several other occasions where seaplanes were so overloaded, that they had to taxi to their destination, but this one is a great example of the contributions of seaplanes (from all nations) did during the war.

Hope Lt. Burns was decorated for his heroism.

 

[Venturi]

I did not state that the P40 was faster with the radiator moved back. I did state that Berlin felt it was the reason for the instability that the P40D/E displayed, which the P40B/C did not.

Additionally while the P40Q may have been marginally slower (I believe it was >400mph at military power, 20,000'), the P40 always had a roll rate advantage over the P-51, and was lighter to boot. Not all aircraft performance characteristics come down to pure speed. More to the point, it did not have the range required of an escort fighter, and it came too late.

 

[GrauGeist]

Hope Lt. Burns was decorated for his heroism.

He was. He recieved the Navy Cross for his actions that day.

Surprised no one caught on to the sub's name that was performing Lifeguard duty that day. The Tang was one of the legends (and terrors of the IJN) of the Pacific, commanded by Lt. Cmdr. O'Kane - he ended up rescuing or taking aboard, 22 aircrew that day.

 

[P-39 Expert]

He was. He recieved the Navy Cross for his actions that day.

Surprised no one caught on to the sub's name that was performing Lifeguard duty that day. The Tang was one of the legends (and terrors of the IJN) of the Pacific, commanded by Lt. Cmdr. O'Kane - he ended up rescuing or taking aboard, 22 aircrew that day.

I toured a WWII sub once and it was claustrophobic as hell. Can't imagine where they put 22 new guys. Not doubting your story at all.

 

[Peter Gunn]

*SNIP*
Can't imagine where they put 22 new guys.
*SNIP*

On the veranda.

 

[GrauGeist]

I toured a WWII sub once and it was claustrophobic as hell. Can't imagine where they put 22 new guys. Not doubting your story at all.

My Uncle served aboard a few subs in the PTO, and the last sub he served aboard was the USS Cavalla (SS-244).
They performed Lifeguard duties off the coast of Japan latewar, picking up B-29 aircrew and even some downed Japanese aircrew.

There's enough room if you use all available space, but it was a real bitch if they had to go to General Quarters!

 

[michael rauls]

I did not state that the P40 was faster with the radiator moved back. I did state that Berlin felt it was the reason for the instability that the P40D/E displayed, which the P40B/C did not.
Additionally while the P40Q may have been marginally slower (I believe it was >400mph at military power, 20,000'), the P40 always had a roll rate advantage over the P-51, and was lighter to boot. Not all aircraft performance characteristics come down to pure speed. More to the point, it did not have the range required of an escort fighter, and it came too late.

Ive always felt i t is a shame Curtis didn't get the p40q moving along earlier and from what I've read it seams they could have. Not for use as a long range escort. As you point out it still didn't have that kind range as i understand but it does sound like it retained the p40s better qualities while aliviating most of its less desirable ones.

 

[swampyankee]

My Uncle served aboard a few subs in the PTO, and the last sub he served aboard was the USS Cavalla (SS-244).
They performed Lifeguard duties off the coast of Japan latewar, picking up B-29 aircrew and even some downed Japanese aircrew.

There's enough room if you use all available space, but it was a real bitch if they had to go to General Quarters!

USN subs can still be cramped; the LA boats used hot-bunking as there were fewer bunks than crew.

A developer I worked with at CSC, who had worked for Sonalysts and rode USN and RN boats said the accommodations on the latter were better.

 

[Supermarine-SpitfireMkXIV]

What about the Gloster Gladiator? They were very agile and could fight quite well despite their small armament.

 

[GrauGeist]

What about the Gloster Gladiator? They were very agile and could fight quite well despite their small armament.

The Hs123 shouldn't be overlooked, either.

 

[Supermarine-SpitfireMkXIV]

True they were good dive bombers.

 

[wuzak]

Ive always felt i t is a shame Curtis didn't get the p40q moving along earlier and from what I've read it seams they could have. Not for use as a long range escort. As you point out it still didn't have that kind range as i understand but it does sound like it retained the p40s better qualities while aliviating most of its less desirable ones.

The hold up with the Q was the engine.

 

[swampyankee]

It seems quite a few of the "underrated" were thought to be obsolescent in 1940 or '41, but served well for years after: like the P-40, Hs123, and Curtiss SOC.

 

[P-39 Expert]

The hold up with the Q was the engine.

Not really, the V-1710-93 two stage Allison was in production from April '43 for the P-63. The P-40Q engine was slightly more advanced (and came a little later) with the 12 counterweight crank (3200rpm) and the carb on the engine instead of the auxiliary stage, but performance would have been substantially the same. Curtiss could have been working on the modification and had it ready for production as the -93 was coming online in April '43. Would have made the old Warhawk a high altitude plane.

 

[michael rauls]

Not really, the V-1710-93 two stage Allison was in production from April '43 for the P-63. The P-40Q engine was slightly more advanced (and came a little later) with the 12 counterweight crank (3200rpm) and the carb on the engine instead of the auxiliary stage, but performance would have been substantially the same. Curtiss could have been working on the modification and had it ready for production as the -93 was coming online in April '43. Would have made the old Warhawk a high altitude plane.

Sounds like they could have been delivering the q by early 44? That was kinda the general impression I had but know all the particulars you listed. It's a shame in my opinion. The p40 while certainly not perfect had several good qualities like ruggedness and good general maneuverability etc and coupling that with better high altitude performance could have only made it one more useful asset. Kind one of those missed opportunities. At least as I see it.

 

[BiffF15]

Sounds like they could have been delivering the q by early 44? That was kinda the general impression I had but know all the particulars you listed. It's a shame in my opinion. The p40 while certainly not perfect had several good qualities like ruggedness and good general maneuverability etc and coupling that with better high altitude performance could have only made it one more useful asset. Kind one of those missed opportunities. At least as I see it.

Michael,

Not sure if it was a missed opportunities or not. First the Merlin's Mustang was coming online, and second the P40Q didn't have the legs. What would you envision using a higher altitude Q for that the Mustang could not do better? I'm a big fan of the P40 line, and would liked to have seen the Q go into production, but looking at things from a wartime perspective I think I can see why it didn't happen. The P38K sort of falls into this category as well except it was still operating on the front lines in the Pacific.

Cheers,
Biff