Mr. Color Lacquer Paint

[prem895]

I have a question about thinning this paint. Do you think it would be ok to thin this with plain lacquer thinners, or is it too hot? I have some Mr.Color Leveling thinner on order, but I don't think it will arrive before the weather turns against me. This paint has to be prayed outside, as it is very strong.
This is my 1st time using this paint and anyone who uses this on a regular basis, any tips and tricks would be appreciated.
I did find it very strange that I can not order enamel or lacquer paint from the UK or USA for air mail, but I can order it from Japan and it arrives in just 2 weeks.
I need to spray this over Humbrol enamal 116 that I used for a base coat on my one off 1/35 Trumpeter Hemett m983 tractor. Just needed a distraction from 1/32 aircraft.

 

[mikewint]

The main problem here is that Lacquer is not a single thing but a formulation of MANY different solvents that changes over time EVEN with the same manufacturer. The same thing is true of the thinners which vary over time depending on the costs of the various solvents in the mix. Consider the following formulations ALL of which are labeled the same way, i.e. LACQUER THINNER

Thinner #1 €
25% Light Alaphatic Hydrocarbon Solvent 64742-89-8 3.9
33% Toluene 108-41-4 1.5
0.9% Ethylbenzene 100-41-4 0.7
5% Xylene 1330-20-7 0.75
4% Methanol 67-56-1 3.5
10% 2-Propanol 67-63-0 1.7
21% Acetone 67-64-1 7.7
1% 2-Butoxyethyl Acetate 112-07-2 0.03

Thinner #2
66% Toluene 108-88-3 1.5
7% 2Methyl-1-propanol 78-83-1 0.63
2% 2-Butoxyethanol 111-76-2 0.1
10% Methyl Isobutyl Ketone 108-10-1 1.6
15% Isobutyl Acetate 110-19-0 1.45

Thinner #3
10% 2-Butoxyethanol 111-76-2 0.1
20% n-Butyl Acetate 123-86-4 1.0
70% 1-Methoxy-2-Propanol Acetate 108-65-6 0.39

Thinner #4 €“ Extreme Duty Temperature range
100% 2-Butoxyethanol 111-76-2 0.1

The reason for the CAS number is to clarify which chemical is which. These numbers are unique whereas the chemical names are not. It is not unusual for different manufacturers to have their own brand names. The names will change but the numbers will not. Sometimes that is a good thing. For example,

p-Chlorobenzotrifluoride is commonly known as Oxsol 100 if for no other reason than that it is easier to pronounce.

Take a look at the last number in each line. This is the numerical evaporative rate of that chemical. This rating system always compares chemicals to n-Butyl Acetate, which is always regarded as 1. The lower the number, the slower it evaporates. The higher the number, the faster it evaporates. Thus, acetone has an evaporative rate of 7.7 and 2-Butoxyethanol is 0.1. Acetone evaporates much faster than 2-Butoxyethanol. You may know this chemical by the name Butyl Cellosolve.

The point of all this is to quantify how these chemicals will work together to affect the application of the coating. Acetone is a very fast evaporating solvent. It is not going to hang around very long on a warm day and help the coating to remain liquid. Butyl Cellosolve, by contrast, is going to hang around the longest. This is the one that will affect how quickly to coating will tack up and dry. The higher its concentration in the blend, the slower the coating will dry.

Bottom line, to be safe use the Lacquer manufacturer's thinner or be willing to experiment everytime you buy a new can of thinner

 

[Wurger]

I would be very carefull about the thinner. The Mr.Color paints aren't of the lacquer type. The best way to check if the thinner can be used or not , is to take some of the paint and add a couple of drops of the thinner. If it curdles the thinner can't be used. Also I would suggest checking the clear thiner on the plastic. If it melts that it can't be used as well.

 

[prem895]

I found out, and I quote "It's synthetic lacquer based acrylic paint, which is compatible with Tamiya spray."

I guess the thinner I have is closest to #2 according to the the label. I will mix a small bit and shoot a very thin coat on one of my test planes to see if it will react with Humbrol 116 enamel. If all goes well, I will then see if I can give it one wet coat and see how that goes

 

[mikewint]

"It's synthetic lacquer based acrylic paint,

Acrylic paints have an acrylic resin binder and use water and/or alcohol as a liquid. They are easy and safe to use, permanent, quick drying, low odor and are suitable for brush and airbrush.
Drying time for acrylic paints is affected by many factors – how heavily it is applied, temperature, humidity, mediums used, brand, and color, to name a few – but most acrylic paints will be touch dry in 20-30 minutes. This does not mean they are cured. Cure time is when the acrylic film is fully stable, close to its maximum durability, water resistant and less vulnerable to attack by mild solvents. This usually takes at least three days for thin applications and may take much longer (up to two weeks or more) for thick applications.
Since acrylics can be thinned and equipment cleaned with alcohol or water they are very user friendly. However, care is needed because they can dry very quickly and when dried are difficult to remove. Most manufacturers produce thinners for use with their own ranges and to be absolutely safe you should stick with these. Water and alcohol will act as a thinner with most paint ranges, but will not always give such good results and it is not always possible to mix acrylic paints from different manufacturers.

Lacquers (cellulose) care is needed with this term as it is often used to describe any sort of glossy protective coating, for example furniture is often described as having a lacquered finish. Sometimes, a paint may be described as a lacquer when in fact it is an acrylic or enamel based gloss varnish.

A lacquer is distinguished from other paints by the solvent used which is cellulose. This makes it very different from other types of paint. Lacquer-type paints tend to be highly toxic and very strong smelling, fast drying, very flammable, and form a hard, durable, shiny finish (although some flat lacquers are available).
Because lacquers are very fast drying, highly toxic, flammable and very unforgiving they can be a real pain to use. However, they are popular with some modelers. The shiny hard wearing coat is ideal for auto models – particularly radio control which need to survive the real world. Lacquers are also great for realistic metallic finishes and one of the most popular ranges of metallic lacquers is made by Alclad.

Another range of lacquer paints popular with modelers is the 'Mr Color' range from Gunze Sangyo (not to be confused with their "Mr. Hobby" paint range). Tamiya produces a range of lacquer spray cans and Testors produce some clear lacquer coats under their Model Master range.

There is a weird contradiction with lacquer paints and plastic modeling. Cellulose melts plastic, so you might think that you would not want to get a lacquer paint in direct contact with the plastic surface. However, there are some lacquer based spray primers. Because the lacquer spray is so thin, it dries within seconds before it does any damage to the plastic surface, but it just has enough time to key into the plastic giving it very good grip.

Lacquers need to be applied very thin by spray can or airbrush in a very well ventilated area and with a protective mask. Alcohol, water and acrylic thinners will have no effect on lacquer paints. If anyone knows of a way to remove dried lacquer paint please let me know.

Due to their flammability many mail order and Internet shops will not ship them airmail so you might have to find a local source.

Personally, I would only use lacquer paints as a last resort, since I want to enjoy my hobby and they are just too unpleasant to work with. However, some modelers swear by them.

I never bought into the rule that says you can't apply a lacquer over any other type of paint. There are too many exceptions for this "rule" to be useful. There are many formulas for paints and the groupings are confusing. Lacquer and enamel paint have never been precise terms--they are not named from their ingredients. There is no universal governing body that sets out precise definitions for these types of paints. As a result, we get confused. The lines have become very blurred in the modern world. For example one myth is that all acrylic paints are water-based. There is no rule or law that says paints labeled acrylic must be water-based. Most acrylic paints are water-based, but that's because many acrylic polymers are water soluble. But acrylic polymers can also be soluble in alcohols, esters, and such. The term "acrylic" refers to the paint's solid film-former (binder). In chemistry terms, an acrylic polymer is based on the structure of acrylic acid. Thus if a paint's solid film-former is an acrylic polymer, then by definition it is an acrylic paint, regardless of which solvent(s) is used.

Tamiya's acrylic paints are not your typical acrylic paints. Tamiya uses alcohols and a glycol ether in addition to water as a solvent. But they as still acrylic paints. While Tamiya's acrylics probably are not lacquers, there is no rule that says a lacquer paint cannot have an acrylic binder (hence the acrylic lacquers in the auto industry).

 

[Crimea_River]

I use that particular lacquer thinner seen in your pic mostly for cleaning my airbrush. It is very hot and will almost certainly soften your enamel paint. I do not use it for thinning my Tamiya paints (I use their recommended thinner) except that I do use it for their grey surface primer which is definitely a lacquer based paint. In that one case, I find this thinner to work well.

 

[mikewint]

Andy, keeping in mind that any brands formulation is changeable without notice as market prices for the various solvents changes. Two cans of the same brand could differ in composition. Lacquer is tricky stuff

 

[Wurger]

The main rule is if the thinner "stinks" the same like the paint does it can be used. I have just been using the rule for ages and all was fine with the thinned colours so far.

 

[mikewint]

Too many nasty things in Lacquer, IMHO, to use without respiratory protection (masks/ventilation) I totally avoid it.
I was taught that the general rule of thumb was that the "hotter" paints should not be applied over "cooler" paints.
In general terms, in order of "heat",
1. lacquer
2. enamel
3. acrylic
That is to say that enamels and acrylics can be applied over lacquers and acrylics over enamels safely.

However, we know that for many years, modelers have applied lacquers in the form of Testors glosscote/dullcote and Tamiya spray clear gloss/flat over enamels and acrylics with no ill effects.

Paint incompatibility happens when the solvents in one paint dissolve the binder in the paint underneath it. Since paint companies keep the binder ingredients secret, it is not possible to predict which solvents will dissolve which paints. Hence the cardinal advice is to always test on something other than your model, and always allow the paint to fully cure before applying another paint.
Lacquer thinner is the solvent and thinner used with all types of lacquer, including nitrocellulose, CAB-acrylic and catalyzed. It's the most interesting of the finish solvents because it's composed of half-a-dozen or so individual solvents. Solvents from all five of the solvent families are used in lacquer thinners. Toluene, xylene and "high-flash" (meaning fast evaporating) naphtha are from the petroleum-distillate family. The other four families are ketones, esters, glycol ethers and alcohols.

All the individual solvents from the ketone, ester and glycol ether families dissolve lacquer on their own and are called "active" solvents. But they evaporate at different rates, so manufacturers choose among them to make a thinner that evaporates in steps at the speeds they want.

Alcohol doesn't dissolve lacquer on its own, but it does in combination with these other solvents, so it is called a "latent" solvent. One or more of the alcohols is usually added to the mix to reduce cost.
The nature of lacquers is that they can be fully dissolved (meaning the lacquer molecules are separated) and still be too thick to spray without getting severe orange peel. So to further "thin" the lacquer (and also lacquer thinner) without adding expensive dissolving solvents, manufacturers add up to 50% toluene, xylene or high-flash naphtha. These solvents are called "diluents" or "diluting" solvents.

Because the diluting solvents don't dissolve lacquer, they have to evaporate fast enough to be out of the lacquer before all the dissolving solvents have evaporated. Otherwise, the lacquer will come out of solution and appear as white, cotton-like, particles on the dried finish.

 

[prem895]

Thanks for all of your information o lacquer. It was all quite interesting.
Well I tested a thinned batch of paint and just brushed the lacquer over Hu 116 on this test subject and it seemed to work without any problems. So I took the gamble and shot my tractor. I can confirm that you can spray this paint thinned with the above lacquer thinner over Humboldt enamel without any ill effects as long as you give it a couple to 3 thin coats. I have no doubt that if you give it a heavier wet coat, you will destroy the enamel you are trying to cover.

 

[Wurger]

Looking good.

 

[vikingBerserker]

Looks great!

 

[Crimea_River]

Good to know. Thanks for sharing the results.