GregP
Major
Nice video! Thanks! I am assuming your coolant temps are °C ... The Allsions run at 205°F - 225°F. That is on the ground. I haven't flown one yet ...
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Mustang crashes into crowd at Reno
- Thread starter phas3e
- Start date
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Lord have mercy... I have never witnessed so may suicides on this forum in such a small timeframe. Next?
I thought the same thing but didn't want to say anything. Such an emotionaly charged issue with people so close to the incident, and while sitting at the keyboard they let their emotions build up even more and get the best of them at least long enough to type up an insulting paragraph. It's a shame to, I think all 3 of them had much to contribute to the site.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Nice clip Jim. I see you are pretty snug in there and it would seem that unless get some slack in your sholder harness you're in that seat pretty good.
jimh
Senior Airman
Thanks, yep, I like the lapbelt tight and the shoulder straps loose enough that I can get to the panel and other knobs and switches. Like any airplane the emergency checklist includes locking the harness. At the end, when I lock the controls, I have to lean forward to reach the plunger that goes into the base of the stick. With my helmet on I can get fully forward, but this would not happen if I were in the shoulder straps. It would take ALOT of force to be that far forward and essentially forced out of the shoulder restraints. The B/C cockpit feels more reclined than the D and maybe alittle less roomy than the D.
jim
jim
model299
Airman 1st Class
I saw you crack that smile when you started to buzz the field! You can't fool me!
GREAT video. Thanks for posting it.
What kind of RPM drop do you expect when doing the magneto check on the run-up? Sounded significant, but I figure it was exaggerated by the camera system.
Damn. That just makes me ache. I gotta get my ticket back man......
GREAT video. Thanks for posting it.
What kind of RPM drop do you expect when doing the magneto check on the run-up? Sounded significant, but I figure it was exaggerated by the camera system.
Damn. That just makes me ache. I gotta get my ticket back man......
MikeGazdik
Senior Airman
First off, if nobody wants to speculate I understand. But watching that video link of the Ghost, could the tail wheel dropping cause a plane in that hard turn to go through those gyrations? Or is it more likely to have dropped because of what the aircraft was going through?
jimh
Senior Airman
Yeah, you caught me smiling. I won't lie...this airplane is a magic carpet, it is so much fun to fly it's almost criminal. I'm not trying to hijack this thread, just showing what the Mustang cockpit environment is really like. The runup is done with 30" of manifold pressure and 2000rpm...and its LOUD. After almost 10 years of flying warbirds my hearing is shot. I have to wear a helmet and earbuds.
There are ALOT of myths surrounding the P-51 and its flight characteristics. With a proper amount of tailwheel and T-6 flying it is a pussycat. The day I shot this there was a 90degree gusting 28kt crosswind at Westminister...the Mustang drives right through it, just hold the wing down into the wind and keep it straight with the rudder.
Stalls are mundane and there is plenty of buffet before it departs, in both departure stalls and dirty stalls. Accelerated stalls are exciting and it really breaks hard BUT it gives you plenty of warning and you really have to pull hard on the stick to induce the stall, not to mention you are going to be pulling about 4 to 4.5g's so it is plenty of uncomfortable. Keep the ball centered and you will have no surprises. When it does stall, simply relax the back pressure and it is flying again. These airplanes were designed for 20 year old kids with maybe 200 hours, it is extremely stable and responsive. This is just one reason it makes such a great racer, it is a solid flying machine.
The engine features a manifold pressure regulator, basically set the throttle where you want it and forget it. Most aerobatics can be accomplished with 35-36" of Manifold pressure. The cooling system has an automatic feature that operates the lower coolant door. I glance at the coolant temps every 10-20 seconds. If there is an achilles heel to this airplane it is the cooling system. Once temperatures start to climb and the manual procedures don't fix the problem you have about 10-15 minutes to find a place to land, even less if you experience a significant leak.
pm me if you have any specific questions
Jimmy's memorial is Friday, still hard to believe.
jim
There are ALOT of myths surrounding the P-51 and its flight characteristics. With a proper amount of tailwheel and T-6 flying it is a pussycat. The day I shot this there was a 90degree gusting 28kt crosswind at Westminister...the Mustang drives right through it, just hold the wing down into the wind and keep it straight with the rudder.
Stalls are mundane and there is plenty of buffet before it departs, in both departure stalls and dirty stalls. Accelerated stalls are exciting and it really breaks hard BUT it gives you plenty of warning and you really have to pull hard on the stick to induce the stall, not to mention you are going to be pulling about 4 to 4.5g's so it is plenty of uncomfortable. Keep the ball centered and you will have no surprises. When it does stall, simply relax the back pressure and it is flying again. These airplanes were designed for 20 year old kids with maybe 200 hours, it is extremely stable and responsive. This is just one reason it makes such a great racer, it is a solid flying machine.
The engine features a manifold pressure regulator, basically set the throttle where you want it and forget it. Most aerobatics can be accomplished with 35-36" of Manifold pressure. The cooling system has an automatic feature that operates the lower coolant door. I glance at the coolant temps every 10-20 seconds. If there is an achilles heel to this airplane it is the cooling system. Once temperatures start to climb and the manual procedures don't fix the problem you have about 10-15 minutes to find a place to land, even less if you experience a significant leak.
pm me if you have any specific questions
Jimmy's memorial is Friday, still hard to believe.
jim
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model299
Airman 1st Class
Thanks Jim.
RIP Mr Leeward.
RIP Mr Leeward.
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
Excellent post Jim. I think you just put an end to all our "Whats the best fighter..." threads with that insight. 
Thanks as well for the info and the video was very nice to see as well.
The photograph displayed in post 138 shows a buckle in the skin of the aircraft behind the wing. In other words, the fuselage is flexing slightly which would be a change from the ideal incidence. To compensate for this would require an additional deflection of both the elevator and the elevator trim tab.
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Not being a mechanical engineer, but with some background, the skin stress indicators sure look like sheer forces to me (like B-52 45degree stress lines). The tail either twisting longitudinally wrt the fuselage or experienced sheering vertically. The B-52 example was part of my engineering Strength of Materials class curriculum. Makes this arm chair engineer wonder if an aerodynamic situation resulted in a nose up max-G incapacitating the pilot. Once GLOC, then the end would be predicatable.
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
Another disaster.
Such a crying shame.
John
Such a crying shame.
John
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Ah, so the trim tab results in flutter which then manifests itelf as shear stress (oil canning) of the fuselage. Question, do we know for certain that the oil canning pic occurred after loss of the trim tab?
GregP
Major
No. The "oil canning" pic was taken on lap two (creditted as lap two when first posted by the guy who took the pic), before the incident which resulted in the crash.
I heard several people who are P-51 people say that was not unusual at high speed, but I can't vouch for the truth of it, one way or the other. I rarely see a Mustang going 495 mph except at Reno, and I'm usually watching the race, not taking high-res pics of it.
I heard several people who are P-51 people say that was not unusual at high speed, but I can't vouch for the truth of it, one way or the other. I rarely see a Mustang going 495 mph except at Reno, and I'm usually watching the race, not taking high-res pics of it.
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
i dont know..i have a hard time believing the aircraft is going to "oil can" that much consistantly and be ok. i have seen aircraft components flex...wings for instance. on larger aircraft wings will droop a little until airborne ( and much of that is engineered in )... but a twisting and the stress it places on the airframe is going to weaken it to the point of breakage sooner or later.
GregP
Major
I don't think it is normal for a P-51, as I said, but most P-51's never GET to 500 moph these days. In WWII, they could and did in dives from 30,000 feet, but most P-51 owners stay VFR below 14,500 feet these days. Who wants to spend money running a Merlin or an Allison on instruments?
Also, The Galloping Ghost didn't have a doghouse for the non-existent radiator, and I'm pretty sure the airflow is considerably different from a stock P-51 fuselage at that point. Maybe not, but it would make sense to me. The aorflow that comes out from the bottom of the wing trailing edge usually has to interact with the airflow from the doghouse ... but not on the Ghost.
I'll refrain from speculation, but I still believe this is one of the best-documented incidents an aiviation accident investigator has had since the Hindeburg fire, so I suppose we'll see what they come up with. Of course, there have been airshows in the past with video of an accident, too. I'm thinking of when Wes Winter pulled the wings off a Partenavia P-68 in Texas nack in the 1980's. I think the final report may take year, even with all this great documentation ... and that is outrageous. If you can't complete a report quickly given the amount of information on this incident, when CAN you?
Also, The Galloping Ghost didn't have a doghouse for the non-existent radiator, and I'm pretty sure the airflow is considerably different from a stock P-51 fuselage at that point. Maybe not, but it would make sense to me. The aorflow that comes out from the bottom of the wing trailing edge usually has to interact with the airflow from the doghouse ... but not on the Ghost.
I'll refrain from speculation, but I still believe this is one of the best-documented incidents an aiviation accident investigator has had since the Hindeburg fire, so I suppose we'll see what they come up with. Of course, there have been airshows in the past with video of an accident, too. I'm thinking of when Wes Winter pulled the wings off a Partenavia P-68 in Texas nack in the 1980's. I think the final report may take year, even with all this great documentation ... and that is outrageous. If you can't complete a report quickly given the amount of information on this incident, when CAN you?
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
i would suppose they get as indepth with these crashes as they do with airliners. in those cases every scrap is brought to an area and the plane basically laid out. each piece is inspected for potential causes...of course certain sections that are of higher suspect are given more and first scrutiny. when 427 went down locally....it ended up being spread out on the floors of one of the hangers here at pittsburgh airport. that kind of investigation takes a long time...so preliminary reports may be released but the official cause will be a while in coming i suspect.
ww2restorer
Airman 1st Class
- 239
- May 28, 2011
This will be my second post on this site, and the last.
Thank you Mr O'Brien for your post validating that you had not manipulated the photograph as accused by so blatantly by many.
Any person with any basic knowledge would have known that if it was "Photoshopped" the Authorities would have discredited its authenticity and that digital camera's also have a forensic fingerprint that can trace a photo's history. If the persons doing the analysis of the photo had only looked they would have known it was not a converted ground photo.
A) The Propeller is running at a Constant Speed setting, (the blades look thicker) If the engine was stopped as on the ground the blades would be set at a High RPM setting, (the blades will look thinner)Also the blades look stopped because the photographer was using a very high shutter speed.
B) The evaporation cooler outlet, the steam is trailing the length of the empennage, if it was on the ground,(with propeller stopped)it wouldn't be working, period.
The wobble in the video, passing through wake turbulence, it is constant in racing and when flying close to other aircraft.
The Oil Canning, due to the stresses on the empannage from two factors, torque and changing the aircraft line of flight through its Longitudinal Axis.The tail structure is doing its job trying to keep the aircarft flying straight and level, however the person flying the aircarft is wanting the aircraft to change direction, so the airframe flexes, as designed and for a micro second we see oil canning.
The sudden pitch up. As JimH has correctly posted, when flying a high speed aircraft to counter the aerodynamic tendency for the aircraft to climb (Speed increases lift) the pilot must put in nose down trim, in air racing this is rather large. When the trim tab began to fail this nose down trim was rapidly lost and the opposite results, a rapid climb. In this case to an extent that it placed a 22.6g loading on the aircraft.Mr Leeward was instantly unconscious, no human can withstand such a G load.
The seat breaking, rubbish, the cockpit had a rear bulkhead that extended from the top of the canopy to the cockpit floor, the upper section canted rearward. Mr Leeward, those who knew the gentleman, knew he was of average build and had a flying posture of leaving forward, with the G load, his body will have travelled in the direction of least resistance, forward. In the photo of the aircarft overhead, you can clearly see the back of his helmet near the glearshield.
The change in engine sound. The Merlin is a carburetted engine, under the G loading, fuel flow to the carburettor would have been slowed until the pumps could maintain flow, the engine sputtered for a few seconds, then regained full power. This probably also induced the roll at the top of the climb.
As for Qualifications, I know there are experts here that will question this. I Graduated Auckland University in NZ with an Aeronautical Engineering Degree, a Masters and PhD in Aeronautical Engineering from MIT and University of California. I have an A&P with Inspection Authorisation and also a FAA AME. I hold Pilots licence's from several Countries including the USA, which I hold ATPL and FAA Examiner ratings. I have been involved at air racing for over 25 years although many do not know me, I am mostly in the background doing engineering, but have worked most in the era of Jimmy Leeward, Hoot Gibson, Steve Hinton Sr, Tiger.... the list goes on.I have also worked with CF, back in the 80's with Nate Mayo.Also checked out Rob C for the T6, TBM. I am an advisor to the FAA, NSTB, the US Military. I live part time in NZ, part time in USA.
Again, this will be final post, good luck, and thank the Moderators for letting me use your photo for my Avatar, I am honoured that you let me use it. , I have not had such a good laugh in a long time, this last week has been extremely hilarious, over such a tragic event. I will now go and attend to my duty at NTSB at trying to further solve this case.
Good bye.
Thank you Mr O'Brien for your post validating that you had not manipulated the photograph as accused by so blatantly by many.
Any person with any basic knowledge would have known that if it was "Photoshopped" the Authorities would have discredited its authenticity and that digital camera's also have a forensic fingerprint that can trace a photo's history. If the persons doing the analysis of the photo had only looked they would have known it was not a converted ground photo.
A) The Propeller is running at a Constant Speed setting, (the blades look thicker) If the engine was stopped as on the ground the blades would be set at a High RPM setting, (the blades will look thinner)Also the blades look stopped because the photographer was using a very high shutter speed.
B) The evaporation cooler outlet, the steam is trailing the length of the empennage, if it was on the ground,(with propeller stopped)it wouldn't be working, period.
The wobble in the video, passing through wake turbulence, it is constant in racing and when flying close to other aircraft.
The Oil Canning, due to the stresses on the empannage from two factors, torque and changing the aircraft line of flight through its Longitudinal Axis.The tail structure is doing its job trying to keep the aircarft flying straight and level, however the person flying the aircarft is wanting the aircraft to change direction, so the airframe flexes, as designed and for a micro second we see oil canning.
The sudden pitch up. As JimH has correctly posted, when flying a high speed aircraft to counter the aerodynamic tendency for the aircraft to climb (Speed increases lift) the pilot must put in nose down trim, in air racing this is rather large. When the trim tab began to fail this nose down trim was rapidly lost and the opposite results, a rapid climb. In this case to an extent that it placed a 22.6g loading on the aircraft.Mr Leeward was instantly unconscious, no human can withstand such a G load.
The seat breaking, rubbish, the cockpit had a rear bulkhead that extended from the top of the canopy to the cockpit floor, the upper section canted rearward. Mr Leeward, those who knew the gentleman, knew he was of average build and had a flying posture of leaving forward, with the G load, his body will have travelled in the direction of least resistance, forward. In the photo of the aircarft overhead, you can clearly see the back of his helmet near the glearshield.
The change in engine sound. The Merlin is a carburetted engine, under the G loading, fuel flow to the carburettor would have been slowed until the pumps could maintain flow, the engine sputtered for a few seconds, then regained full power. This probably also induced the roll at the top of the climb.
As for Qualifications, I know there are experts here that will question this. I Graduated Auckland University in NZ with an Aeronautical Engineering Degree, a Masters and PhD in Aeronautical Engineering from MIT and University of California. I have an A&P with Inspection Authorisation and also a FAA AME. I hold Pilots licence's from several Countries including the USA, which I hold ATPL and FAA Examiner ratings. I have been involved at air racing for over 25 years although many do not know me, I am mostly in the background doing engineering, but have worked most in the era of Jimmy Leeward, Hoot Gibson, Steve Hinton Sr, Tiger.... the list goes on.I have also worked with CF, back in the 80's with Nate Mayo.Also checked out Rob C for the T6, TBM. I am an advisor to the FAA, NSTB, the US Military. I live part time in NZ, part time in USA.
Again, this will be final post, good luck, and thank the Moderators for letting me use your photo for my Avatar, I am honoured that you let me use it. , I have not had such a good laugh in a long time, this last week has been extremely hilarious, over such a tragic event. I will now go and attend to my duty at NTSB at trying to further solve this case.
Good bye.
