Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Well, the P-47 isn't going to be doing 450mph while turning, unless in a dive.Spring '45; flying a P-47 try to turn with a Me 262 at 450 mph
That is not a P-36 in the photo.
I find the P-36/P-40 series interesting because from the firewall back we have the same airplane (wing, fuselage, tail, etc) but powered by number of different engines and some rather different performance envelopes. It was not until the P-40Q that there was much change in either the wing or fuselage.
As I said, the plane in the photo was a P-40 (no letter) that P & W got ahold of an stuck a two stage engine similar to the engine in the F4F-4 Wildcat.
Granted in had no guns and no armor but it wound up being the 4th fastest P-40 ever built. It was faster than the P-40F/L by a measurable margin.
the P & W home Field was also home to an training squadron of P-40Fs and the experimental plane often flew mock dogfights against the P-40Fs.
The Point is that the large amount of power the P-40Q had, it wasn't much faster than the Hawk 81 experimental.
So how do you judge performance based on looks?
Here is another picture.
View attachment 723571
The two big scoops don't look very streamlined. The cowl opening doesn't look like anything special.
The exhaust pipes and ducts are very out of the ordinary for 1942/43.
This thing was supposed to be about as fast in 1942 as a Ki 84 was in 1944 according to some sources on Japanese aircraft.
The P-40Q was about as fast as some people claim the the Ki-84 was if it hand good fuel.
What I am saying is that is very hard to base anything on "looks".
Yes you had the Hawk 75, the Hawk 81 (P-40 through P-40C/Tomahawks) and the Hawk 87 (P-40D through N) and there were quite a few internal changes. Oil tank for one went from behind the engine on the 75 to behind the pilot on 81 to back behind the engine on 87.There are four if the P-40Q is included, but we will ignore that one for now. The first type, is the P-36 or Hawk 75 according to the Curtiss designation. Although the prototype P-37 / P-40 was based on the P-36, production models differed a bit. They were the Hawk 81 series and were the P-40 through P-40C. Although superficially, only the tail gear is different, the internal equipment isn't all the same and I don't believe the dimensions are all the same either. Look at the fuselage fuel tank for an obvious difference. The P-40 got a pretty radical change with the P-40D model (Curtiss Hawk 87). The P-40 fuselage is constructed as an upper and lower half and the entire upper half was replaced. That is why the earlier aircraft look slightly hump backed while later aircraft do not. Of course there was also the lengthening of the tail starting with some models of the P-40K and P-40F/L. The P-40Q actually doesn't have much similarity to the earlier aircraft other than name and some construction methods and equipment such as the goofy landing gear.
Yes you had the Hawk 75, the Hawk 81 (P-40 through P-40C/Tomahawks) and the Hawk 87 (P-40D through N) and there were quite a few internal changes. Oil tank for one went from behind the engine on the 75 to behind the pilot on 81 to back behind the engine on 87.
However it appears that the wing, while internal structure changed (guns and beefing up) the external shape did not. Same span, same plan form, same airfoil, same flaps and ailerons.
Wing gained 250-265lbs in weight be didn't change shape (aerodynamics)
Pretty much the same for the tail, horizontal stabilizer and elevators stayed the same and in the same location. The vertical fin/rudder also stayed pretty much the same even when the moved it back 20 inches. Some of them got a small fin addition. The bigger fin addition went away or got smaller when they moved the vertical fin back.
There were minor differences in the Canopy and wind screen. But no external BP glass or Malcom hoods , except for the Q's, bubble canopies.
The landing gear changed a bit in length but from the aerodynamic view the change was from the 75 to 81 when they changed the doors and got rid of the wheel covers on the Hawk 75, which never came back even on the Q's.
Very fighters changed as little aerodynamically as the Hawk series from beginning to end, especially considering the changes in engines. Five different radials (or more depending on how you count the various Cyclone 9s or the early 2 stage R-1830?) two different Allisons (shape not power output) and not counting the Q and the Merlin.
According to some accounts the Qs just cut 1 ft off each wing tip. No change to the leading edge or ailerons. Yes, a lot changed to fuselage.
It does make a good plane for comparing the drag of radials vs V-12 engines as so little was changed. And we have several different V-12s and several different radials to hep average things out. We also have the Hawk 81 P & W Special to help show how radial engine installations progressed.
The Hawk 87s got a little skinner from top to bottom (they didn't have to look over the top of the radial engines anymore) but the Hawk 75 fuselage was pretty skinny side to side even at the beginning. Apparently Berlin/Curtiss didn't subscribe to tear drop school of streamlining.
View attachment 724930
I am not saying that they designed the Hawk 75 in 1935-36 for the Allison. However it was better plane to put the Allison in than a P-35/P-43I agree with comparing raidlas with inlines, but not so much the drag.
I agree with comparing raidials with inlines, but not so much the drag.
The P-40 airframe was designed for a radial as the P-36 Hawk and, when the inline was fitted, they didn't redesign the fuselage for an optimum fit for the Allison ... they made the engine mount and cowling to fit the existing fuselage that was designed for the radial. So, yes, you can compare the two. But, no, the Allison-powered unit was never designed for the Allison ... it was adapted to fit the originally radial-powered P-36 Hawk.
It is quite possible that had the P-40 been reworked to fit the Allison more optimally, it would have performed better. But I doubt the increase would have amounted to more than 10 - 15 mph even if exactly optimal because the military was running the Allison V-1710 with very conservative MAP numbers. Now, had they optimized the P-40 in a redesign and then used 70" MAP combined with a better propeller, then you might have something on a different level of performance than the basic P-40. It might have been a 400 mph unit.
But that depends on some rather vague optimization. Another "what if" that cannot be adequately explored since it was never built. The P-4Q came closest to this and DID exceed 400 mph in level flight. But it also was made over a year and a half later than when it could have been made. Another case of "too little, too late."
Last, if you have ever taken a close look at a P-40, and I have, it appears it could easily gain some speed by cleaning up the general fit and finish. There are a lot s small, square overlaps than COULD be made into flush-fit skins.
It does, however, look really cool.View attachment 725634
Note air intake on the top of the cowl near the back of the engine.
The rather sizable radiator hanging out the bottom.
Oil cooler scoop under the nose?
The shrouded exhaust pipes. Air inlet in the front but all six cylinders trying exit out the pipe at the rear.
View attachment 725635In the wind tunnel
No propeller blades.
No carb intake.
interim exhausts?
Can't see the radiator.
Oil cooler is larger? or combined with other things?
A truck load of P-40 images on this thread. eBay: Curtiss P-40
Try page 12 for not only a few pictures of the XP-40 but some pictures of the first P-40Q ( standard canopy and full span wings)
The Ki-100 has always baffled me. It is usually reported on with glowing praise, yet on paper, seems to have 1941 era Spitfire Mk.V performance.
From Wiki;
" A well-handled Ki-100 was able to outmanoeuvre any American fighter, including the P-51D Mustangs and Republic P-47N Thunderbolts which escorted the B-29s over Japan, and was comparable in speed, especially at medium altitudes"
" The Ki-100 along with the Army's Nakajima Ki-84 and the Navy's Kawanishi N1K-J were equal to the latest Allied types in the final year of the Pacific War."
Not sure how that would be possible, considering the "latest allied types in the final year of the Pacific war" would be P-47N's, P-51D's, F4U-4 and a smattering of Spitfire MK.XIV's all of which would have enjoyed a 80 mph speed advantage
There was overwheling allied fighter cover on d-day plus. Turning or not with a bunch of brit mustangs behind will make your chanches slim.mistake of not turning
Thank you for providing such an excellent overview of Japanese aircraft performance and maneuverability. The sources that you've rounded up are both high quality and compelling in their presentation of data.The reason for the Ki-100's perceived superiority is that turning easily made a mess of hit and run attacks, but the general knowledge of WWII tactics is so poor people just assume hit and run tactics were superior... Hit and run tactics could work, sort of, but required a target that cooperated by going straight, and also firing at point blank range, because the overtaking allowed only a limited firing window. Any shooting from afar would warn the target, which by turning would ruin the approach. Hit and Run ("Dive and zoom") as a superior prop/gun tactic to turning was largely a 1930s assumption.
Turning by contrast did not allow a good aiming lead to a non-turning opponent without this opponent first sharing the circle, and this then also "trapped" the turning opponent in the turn, because rolling out of a turn was usually a bad mistake.
Another myth is that the Imperial Japanese Navy had a strong turning doctrine(!). This has never been true throughout the entire War, Hit and Run being by far preferred by the Navy, with the Zero placing a great emphasis on the Hinero-Komi maneuver, which is a kind of twisted vertical loop.
1975 Saburo Sakai interview: "It was great in dogfights, especially in the vertical. In a vertical looping maneuver like this (looping) the Zero was absolutely wonderful! Even if they got behind you, if you enter a vertical looping contest, in about 3 or 4 loops we'd be right back on their tail. That's how good the Zero was in vertical maneuvers." "We used a diagonal looping maneuver. No two pilots had the same Hinero Komi maneuver."
The Zero not habitually turning in Japanese service (unlike American assumptions based on evaluations of captured examples) is a recent discovery by Intelligence historian Justin Pyke (a specialist in Intelligence archival research), who is interviewed here:
View: https://youtu.be/ApOfbxpL4Dg?si=8unn86EM2X5BSGqy
57:55: Useful intro to the discovery.
1:01:45 (USN pilot, late 1942) "[Japanese Zero] pilots have generally poor fighter tactics. Zeroes could not be shaken by us if they would chop their throttles and sit on our tails. [Meaning turn]"
At 59:07 "Intelligence reports assumed that these tactics indicated the Zero lacked maneuverability."
59:22 "Judging from their apparently long fuselage, these planes do not have a small turning circle, and are not very maneuverable."
59:33 "The Chinese report in question noted the reluctance of the Japanese Navy pilots to dogfight."
1:00:05 "Chinese pilots report that the Japanese will not engage in a turning duel."
1:01:32 "Accounts (from intelligence archives) of Japanese hit and run tactics against the Allies are so numerous, we'd be here for days..."
All this is also borne out by N1K pilot interviews, who used the same tactics all the way to the end. To think Imperial Japanese Navy tactics encouraged turning is to know virtually nothing about the most stalwart "Hit and Run" institution of WWII... German Me-109G pilots were similarly holding on to Hit and Run because of their Eastern Front experience, but finally, way too late, Eastern Front 100 kill aces started to relent by late 1944, as 5 kills Western newbies literally pleaded with them to start turning...:
-"Defenders of the Reich" JG 1 p. 247: Ofhr. Hubert Heckmann (5 kills, survived the War): "I became wingman to the new Kommandeur, Hptm. Karl-Heinz Weber (136 kills). His only experience was from the Eastern Front, and from time to time he used the words "pull up during air combat". I assumed that he would make use of this method in the West, and I warned him about doing so. As his "Kaczmarek", I did not want to lose my "protégé" on his first mission- that would be a bad omen. But he cast all my well-meant recommendations to the wind on our first mission. Weber had a highly polished aircraft [thus emphasizing speed] and whereas we all looked like gray mice, he differed from the rest of the formation. Besides he had Methanol on board [again, emphasis on speed in every option: Me-109G-6AS with MW-50]—7th June Flying at 1000 m. about 30 P-51s showed up some 500 meters above us. After passing us they made a downward turn. Weber didn't turn in, but pulled up steep into the sky, dragging a Methanol cloud behind him. I yelled "turn in!" but he did not listen. I saw 4 P-51s coming down on me, and pulled into a slight left bank [meaning he reduced his turn to entice them to him] to distract them from Weber. My self-sacrifice was of no use; two P-51s stayed behind me, and the other two went after Weber. I fought my two opponents for more than 30 minutes. They moved off when, eventually, they lost much of their speed. That evening we were informed Hptm. Weber (136 kills) was dead." (Killed on his first Western Front mission)
So here you have a relative newbie (with less than 5 kills) desperately trying to protect a 136 kill ace from his mistake of not turning... Interesting...
Concerning the Ki-100 and its turning superiority:
"Aeroplane" November 2005, "Ki-100 fighter Database": p. 61-77 "The conclusion drawn by the Akeno pilots left little to the imagination: In short, it stated that given equally skilled pilots, the Ki-100 (585 km/h) would always win a fight with the Ki-84 (640-660 km/h) in any one-to-one combat. They further added that in a combat situation with up to three Ki-84s, the Ki-100 pilot could still develop the battle to his advantage. The results of the evaluations at the Hitachi school were just as clear-cut: [Captain Yasuro Mazaki] added that the Ki-84 was "only superior to the Ki-100 in diving speed. The Ki-100 was much better in the turn and while climbing." P.77 -The maneuverability of the Ki-100 was the best of the Army's frontline fighters. with the exception of the Ki-43."
Massive Japanese Army pilot preference for the Ki-43 over the Ki-84, simply for basic survival...:
Osprey "Ki-43 aces of WWII" p.50: Sgt. Toshimi Ikezawa, Ki-43 ace: "I heard Major Eto had refused delivery of the Ki-84 (640-660 km/h). They could not avoid an attack if it came from above, because of the Ki-84's poor rate of turn (17-18 s. left, 20-21 s. right). I think we owe our survival to the Ki-43 (540 km/h, 12 s. turn either way), as the Ki-84 would have left you in a tight spot if attacked from above by P-51s. Skilled Spitfire [Mk VIII] pilots would pull out of their dives (!!!) when they realized they could not catch us [unaware]. New [inexperienced] pilots would continue to dive straight down on us, leaving them vulnerable in a turning fight..."
The TAIC captured a Ki-43-II pilot manual and noted: "There is evidence to believe Japanese Army pilots have a strong preference for the Ki-43 over the higher performing Tony and Tojo."
To give perspective, typical P-51B turn times are around the 21-22 seconds mark. Me-109Gs in Soviet tests are 20 left and 21.6 right (above 400 km/h this preference reversed), but I believe they might go one second lower in some hands, or with reduced power. So even the heavy Ki-84 was better in left turns, but similar in right turns to Western types.
Another example of turning's ability to disrup diving attacks:
"Unknown Sword, the battlefield of Army test pilots" p.86-89 and "Aviation decisive battle weapons."(Japanese books): Oblt Losigkeit (German test flying Me-109E-7, in Japan, against Ki-27): "The Ki-27 often turns, so I cannot dive on it."
As to the Ki-84 performance, I think all Army fighter units were ensured 90-92 octane to the end, or at the very least with the Ki-84 units. The Ki-84 did have lemons, but I think the lemons were simply used to upkeep the better ones, and that pilots were not risked on them. The idea of greatly reduced Ki-84 performance because of low quality fuels or maintenance is dubious at best, since pilots were in short supply. Several captured front line pilots reported a top level speed of about 640 km/h (400 mph) at 5 km, which they say they "possibly" (?) could exceed, but never did in practice.
Besides the known Homare problems (it apparently required a full overhaul every time the engine was boosted beyond limits in combat), a more significant issue is that the climb rate performance of the Ki-84 is wildly overstated, as the high power to weight ratio brings on speculations that have no basis in reality. This can quite clearly be seen in the above Ki-100 vs Ki-84 comparison, where it is clear the Ki-84's climb rate is quite modest... I think the cause for Ki-84 climb rate being no better than a FW-190A-8 is the small diameter of its prop (8 inches shorter than the N1K1), which is why the heavier N1K1 climbed significantly better with less power (but probably did not exceed 610 km/h).
This below is from Japanese sources for a Ki-84b (the designations Ki-84-Ia and Ib are Rene Francillon creations, they were Just Ki-84a and Ki-84b in actual Japanese documents), and I believe it is a best case late production value for the speed (659 km/h), and realistic on the climb and ceiling for typical Ki-84as:
Ki 84-Ib: 4x20mm Ho-5 with 120 shells per cannon.
P /L: 4.1 lb /hp; Max speed: 410 mph /20,000'
Initial Climb: 3,787 fpm; Climb to 16,405': 6'54" (this is similar to a FW-190A-8)
W /L: 35.5 lb /sf
Ceiling: 34,449
Normal Range: 1,025
I hope this clarifies a bit what is a series of very confused subjects.