N1K2-J & Ki-84 VS F4U-4
- Thread starter Razgriz1
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airminded88
Airman 1st Class
The P-47N saw operational service in the PTO as far as I recall and that was a force to be reckoned with.
Welcome to the forum.
Welcome to the forum.
GregP
Major
Leaving out the Ki-100, surely a good one. too. I think the Ki-100, Ki-84,and J2M were among the best three for Japan, but it's the poster's thread. Don't forget the USA had the Corsair, the P-51D/K. and the Hellcat (best kill record on the Pacific) plus the FM-2 (surely a good one from the kill ratio! The F8F got there but didn't make combat and the F7F was JUST getting there when it ended, so it also didn't make combat during the war, but WAS flying at the time. I'd say anything that got into the F7F's armament stream was dead (4 x 50-cal plus 4 x 20 mm), but it never got fired in anger in WWII, so it doesn't make the team.
Collectively, the question was answered in the war and we won. Individually, I'd say the pilot would make the difference. All were strong individually. No real losers, here.
Collectively, the question was answered in the war and we won. Individually, I'd say the pilot would make the difference. All were strong individually. No real losers, here.
Knowing very little about any of these aircraft I again defer to Brown:
F4U-1 Corsair
A mixture of the good, the mediocre, and the bad. It had excellent acceleration, speed, and firepower, and was rugged in construction, but its slow-speed characteristics left much to be desired. Maneuverability was mediocre from the point of view of dogfighting, but it had a good rate of roll that could be used to advantage defensively. In summary, as a fighter the Corsair was a formidable aircraft to introduce to the Pacific theatre, but as a shipboard aircraft it had serious shortcomings.
Kawanishi N1K2-J George 12
A high-quality, high-performance fighter that appeared too late and in too few numbers to influence the course of the air war. It was well armed and protected--the Japanese having learned from their combat experience against the Americans.
Corsair II vs. George 12
This would bring together two aircraft very similar in performance and handling characteristics. Pilot skill would play a vital role in deciding the winner. Verdict: a critical analysis of all the facets of performance, maneuverability, firepower and ruggedness would probably show the Japanese plane to be at a small--a very small--advantage.
F4U-1 Corsair
A mixture of the good, the mediocre, and the bad. It had excellent acceleration, speed, and firepower, and was rugged in construction, but its slow-speed characteristics left much to be desired. Maneuverability was mediocre from the point of view of dogfighting, but it had a good rate of roll that could be used to advantage defensively. In summary, as a fighter the Corsair was a formidable aircraft to introduce to the Pacific theatre, but as a shipboard aircraft it had serious shortcomings.
Kawanishi N1K2-J George 12
A high-quality, high-performance fighter that appeared too late and in too few numbers to influence the course of the air war. It was well armed and protected--the Japanese having learned from their combat experience against the Americans.
Corsair II vs. George 12
This would bring together two aircraft very similar in performance and handling characteristics. Pilot skill would play a vital role in deciding the winner. Verdict: a critical analysis of all the facets of performance, maneuverability, firepower and ruggedness would probably show the Japanese plane to be at a small--a very small--advantage.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
I can't believe nobody has mentioned:
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
The N1K2-J was the most maneuverable in either the lateral or longitudinal planes.
Its maneuverability was likened to the Zero's only at faster speeds. And Greg is right,
when in good condition and the engine was running correctly, the J2M was an excellent
aircraft with a very good blend of performance & maneuverability. IMO, what made the
Ki.100 such a great plane from the Japanese point of view was its outstanding horizontal
maneuvering capability coupled to an engine that was dependable. A dependable engine
coming out of Japan in 1944/45 was a becoming a rarity.
Its maneuverability was likened to the Zero's only at faster speeds. And Greg is right,
when in good condition and the engine was running correctly, the J2M was an excellent
aircraft with a very good blend of performance & maneuverability. IMO, what made the
Ki.100 such a great plane from the Japanese point of view was its outstanding horizontal
maneuvering capability coupled to an engine that was dependable. A dependable engine
coming out of Japan in 1944/45 was a becoming a rarity.
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CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Before we go too far here, " Does anyone out there in WW2Aircraft.Netland have
the full or partial TAIC report/graphs on the N1K2-J?" I only have the NiK1-J report.
the full or partial TAIC report/graphs on the N1K2-J?" I only have the NiK1-J report.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
N1K2-J
Engine: Nakajima Homare 21: 1,975 [email protected]. / 2,050 hp.@ 2,500 ft. / 1,875 hp.
@ 5,900 ft. (military) / 1,675 hp. @ 19,620 ft. (military) using 92 octane plus methanol.
Pilot notes from J2M Raiden and N1K1/2 Shiden/Shiden-Kai Aces, Aircraft of the Aces No.129
From the Author
" The Shiden-Kai was totally different to fly than the Shiden." " There were still problems
with the engine and propeller." " Stall came abruptly."
" Although the Shiden-Kai was a handful near the stall, it was an excellent heavy interceptor
that could exceed the Zero-Sen fighter."
" The performance of the Homare engine continued to be lower than expected." " Fuel
quality was down to 85 octane because it was mixed with an oil extract from pine tree
roots - this proved to be very volatile." " Pilots in the front line still claimed that the Shiden-
Kai's performance was good up to 30,000 ft."
" Unlike the J2M Raiden, the N1K2-J had not really been designed for high altitude
interceptions. Indeed, according to Lt Cdr Shiga, the fighter's Hormare 21 engine
suffered significant loss of power above 21,000 ft."
Shiden-Kai vs. VF-17 Hellcats
" Naval aviators from VF-17 also noted that the enemy fighters had excellent climbing
characteristics and superior speed. when confronted with Hellcats on their tails, the
Japanese pilots would snaproll to the left, their automatic combat flaps having saved
them time and time again."
Aircraft Profile 213 Page 16
N1K2-J vs. J2M3m21
"...the Shiden-kai had a nominal maximum (military power) speed advantage of 4 mph.
but it had a much longer range while being more maneuverable and having markedly
superior visibility from the cockpit."
Engine: Nakajima Homare 21: 1,975 [email protected]. / 2,050 hp.@ 2,500 ft. / 1,875 hp.
@ 5,900 ft. (military) / 1,675 hp. @ 19,620 ft. (military) using 92 octane plus methanol.
Pilot notes from J2M Raiden and N1K1/2 Shiden/Shiden-Kai Aces, Aircraft of the Aces No.129
From the Author
" The Shiden-Kai was totally different to fly than the Shiden." " There were still problems
with the engine and propeller." " Stall came abruptly."
" Although the Shiden-Kai was a handful near the stall, it was an excellent heavy interceptor
that could exceed the Zero-Sen fighter."
" The performance of the Homare engine continued to be lower than expected." " Fuel
quality was down to 85 octane because it was mixed with an oil extract from pine tree
roots - this proved to be very volatile." " Pilots in the front line still claimed that the Shiden-
Kai's performance was good up to 30,000 ft."
" Unlike the J2M Raiden, the N1K2-J had not really been designed for high altitude
interceptions. Indeed, according to Lt Cdr Shiga, the fighter's Hormare 21 engine
suffered significant loss of power above 21,000 ft."
Shiden-Kai vs. VF-17 Hellcats
" Naval aviators from VF-17 also noted that the enemy fighters had excellent climbing
characteristics and superior speed. when confronted with Hellcats on their tails, the
Japanese pilots would snaproll to the left, their automatic combat flaps having saved
them time and time again."
Aircraft Profile 213 Page 16
N1K2-J vs. J2M3m21
"...the Shiden-kai had a nominal maximum (military power) speed advantage of 4 mph.
but it had a much longer range while being more maneuverable and having markedly
superior visibility from the cockpit."
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CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
F7F:
" The only variant to see action during WW2 turned out to be the -3P variants, which
first arrived in Guam in May, 1945 and forward deployed to Ulithi, Peleliu and Okinawa,
flying operational sorties the last few weeks of the war."
"The F7F-3P entailed the mounting of cameras in the rear fuselage of fifty-eight aircraft."
Flightdeck Friday: F7F Tigercat | Steeljaw Scribe
" The only variant to see action during WW2 turned out to be the -3P variants, which
first arrived in Guam in May, 1945 and forward deployed to Ulithi, Peleliu and Okinawa,
flying operational sorties the last few weeks of the war."
"The F7F-3P entailed the mounting of cameras in the rear fuselage of fifty-eight aircraft."
Flightdeck Friday: F7F Tigercat | Steeljaw Scribe
drgondog
Major
IIRC - the USMC deployed a F-7F Night Fighter Squadron before the war ended.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
You are absolutely right Bill.
" The F7F-1 debuted with its assignment to VMG-911 at MCAS Cherry Point during
the summer of 1944 for aircrew training. VMF(N)-531, home based at MCAS Eagle
Lake, Texas. would receive the first F7F-2Ns and later deployed to Guam in July 1945.
From there the F7Fs were flown to Okinawa, arriving on the last day of the war."
Jeff
" The F7F-1 debuted with its assignment to VMG-911 at MCAS Cherry Point during
the summer of 1944 for aircrew training. VMF(N)-531, home based at MCAS Eagle
Lake, Texas. would receive the first F7F-2Ns and later deployed to Guam in July 1945.
From there the F7Fs were flown to Okinawa, arriving on the last day of the war."
Jeff
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
The four wing mounted 20mm. Type 99 cannon of the N1K2-J were
very effective. On the other hand 2Lt Alton Frazer was able to land his
F4U-1D No.441 with two fuel dropped tanks still inact, 2/5th of his left
wing shot off a 1.5 ft. by ~8 ft. gash down the left side of the fuselage
right behind the cockpit and the bottom third of the rudder shot away.
This all from a Kawanishi fighter's 20 mm. fire.
This aircraft can be seen at its base after the incident on page 86 of
Aircraft of the Aces No.129.
very effective. On the other hand 2Lt Alton Frazer was able to land his
F4U-1D No.441 with two fuel dropped tanks still inact, 2/5th of his left
wing shot off a 1.5 ft. by ~8 ft. gash down the left side of the fuselage
right behind the cockpit and the bottom third of the rudder shot away.
This all from a Kawanishi fighter's 20 mm. fire.
This aircraft can be seen at its base after the incident on page 86 of
Aircraft of the Aces No.129.
- Thread starter
- #13
parsifal
Colonel
I would give a mention to the A7M Reppu (code name SAM).
Formal specifications were handed down by the Imperial Japanese Navy in July for a carrier-based aircraft capable of reaching near-400mph speeds, a service ceiling up to 20,000 feet and a combination cannon/machine gun armament. The task for developing the aircraft was given to Mitsubishi with engine selection between a Mitsubishi development (the Ha-43) or a Nakajima type (the Ha-45, to become the Homare series). The airframe was designed around either fitting as both could provide the needed performance specifications. The resulting prototype - recognized as the A7M1 - was first flown on May 6th 1944. Performance from the installed Nakajima Homare 22 series engine (2,000 horsepower) was lacking but the controls and agility proved sound. Three A7M1 prototypes were eventually built.
While the IJN halted development of the A7M in July, Mitsubishi progressed with their Ha-43 engine of 2,200 horsepower and testing of the completed A7M2 system on October 30, 1944 exceeded all expectations to the point that IJN interest in the aircraft was rekindled. Five total A7M2 prototypes were produced and successful testing allowed the IJN to formally adopt the aircraft into service. It was planned that the A7M could also be fielded from land bases under the A7M3 designation (featuring a supercharged Ha-43 engine) as the Japanese carrier force was largely destroyed and thusly limited by this point in the war. One of the prototypes was later lost to an accident.
With serial production granted, lines were retooled for manufacture of the promising fighter. However, a large earthquake in Nagoya disrupted the effort considerably, forcing shutdowns and repairs. The situation was made worse when Allied air superiority had been gained over the Japanese mainland, resulting in a relentless bombing campaign that further shook war-making capabilities and restricted open movement of resources and needed supplies. The principle threat to Japan at this time was the high-flying, four-engined American Boeing B-29 Superfortress capable of out-ranging Japanese defenses. Three more A7M prototypes were lost during American air attacks. Collectively, the strategic bombing campaign and natural disaster doomed the A7M production schedule for Japan officially surrendered on August 15th, 1945, the surrender being recognized on September 2nd. With the end of the war so too came the end of many projects such as the A7M. Thusly, the A6M would never see her successor and the A7M would never experience combat, her remaining airframes and parts being scrapped at war's end.
The A7M was named the "Reppu" by the Japanese, translating to "Strong Gale" while the Allies assigned her the codename of "Sam". In practice, the A7M was comparable in scope, performance and function to the Republic P-47 Thunderbolt, the Vought F4U Corsair and the Grumman F6F Hellcat - Japan's principle fighter foes in the Pacific.
Overall, the A7M shared some visual similarities to the A6M before it. The fuselage was of a long design with the engine set at the front of the design with the cockpit ahead of amidships. The engine was an air-cooled radial type which allowed the requisite horsepower output and performance gains needed in the new carrier fighter while powering a standard three-bladed propeller assembly. The cockpit sat under a glazed three-piece arrangement with the center piece sliding rearwards along rails for entry/exit. The wings were straight appendages, low-mounted along the fuselage underside featuring rounded wingtips. The undercarriage was of the typical "tail dragger" arrangement with single-wheeled main legs retracting under each wing root and a positional tail wheel under the empennage. The tail section was conventional with a short rounded vertical tail fin and a pair of horizontal tailplanes. The undercarriage would have been strengthened to content with the violent forces inherent in carrier operations. Proposed armament for the A7M series would have included 2 x 20mm Type 99 cannons along with 2 x Type 3 heavy machine guns (some sources states 4 x 20mm cannons, all in the wings). The A7M recorded a top speed of 390 miles per hour with a range of 770 miles and service ceiling of 35,700 feet.
As I said, worth mentioning......
Formal specifications were handed down by the Imperial Japanese Navy in July for a carrier-based aircraft capable of reaching near-400mph speeds, a service ceiling up to 20,000 feet and a combination cannon/machine gun armament. The task for developing the aircraft was given to Mitsubishi with engine selection between a Mitsubishi development (the Ha-43) or a Nakajima type (the Ha-45, to become the Homare series). The airframe was designed around either fitting as both could provide the needed performance specifications. The resulting prototype - recognized as the A7M1 - was first flown on May 6th 1944. Performance from the installed Nakajima Homare 22 series engine (2,000 horsepower) was lacking but the controls and agility proved sound. Three A7M1 prototypes were eventually built.
While the IJN halted development of the A7M in July, Mitsubishi progressed with their Ha-43 engine of 2,200 horsepower and testing of the completed A7M2 system on October 30, 1944 exceeded all expectations to the point that IJN interest in the aircraft was rekindled. Five total A7M2 prototypes were produced and successful testing allowed the IJN to formally adopt the aircraft into service. It was planned that the A7M could also be fielded from land bases under the A7M3 designation (featuring a supercharged Ha-43 engine) as the Japanese carrier force was largely destroyed and thusly limited by this point in the war. One of the prototypes was later lost to an accident.
With serial production granted, lines were retooled for manufacture of the promising fighter. However, a large earthquake in Nagoya disrupted the effort considerably, forcing shutdowns and repairs. The situation was made worse when Allied air superiority had been gained over the Japanese mainland, resulting in a relentless bombing campaign that further shook war-making capabilities and restricted open movement of resources and needed supplies. The principle threat to Japan at this time was the high-flying, four-engined American Boeing B-29 Superfortress capable of out-ranging Japanese defenses. Three more A7M prototypes were lost during American air attacks. Collectively, the strategic bombing campaign and natural disaster doomed the A7M production schedule for Japan officially surrendered on August 15th, 1945, the surrender being recognized on September 2nd. With the end of the war so too came the end of many projects such as the A7M. Thusly, the A6M would never see her successor and the A7M would never experience combat, her remaining airframes and parts being scrapped at war's end.
The A7M was named the "Reppu" by the Japanese, translating to "Strong Gale" while the Allies assigned her the codename of "Sam". In practice, the A7M was comparable in scope, performance and function to the Republic P-47 Thunderbolt, the Vought F4U Corsair and the Grumman F6F Hellcat - Japan's principle fighter foes in the Pacific.
Overall, the A7M shared some visual similarities to the A6M before it. The fuselage was of a long design with the engine set at the front of the design with the cockpit ahead of amidships. The engine was an air-cooled radial type which allowed the requisite horsepower output and performance gains needed in the new carrier fighter while powering a standard three-bladed propeller assembly. The cockpit sat under a glazed three-piece arrangement with the center piece sliding rearwards along rails for entry/exit. The wings were straight appendages, low-mounted along the fuselage underside featuring rounded wingtips. The undercarriage was of the typical "tail dragger" arrangement with single-wheeled main legs retracting under each wing root and a positional tail wheel under the empennage. The tail section was conventional with a short rounded vertical tail fin and a pair of horizontal tailplanes. The undercarriage would have been strengthened to content with the violent forces inherent in carrier operations. Proposed armament for the A7M series would have included 2 x 20mm Type 99 cannons along with 2 x Type 3 heavy machine guns (some sources states 4 x 20mm cannons, all in the wings). The A7M recorded a top speed of 390 miles per hour with a range of 770 miles and service ceiling of 35,700 feet.
As I said, worth mentioning......
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
WHEN DID THE F8F-1 GET ADDED!!!??? The Bearcat did not become
combat operational during WW2, and neither did the A7M.
OK, I'm
over the initial shock now. I have no WEP figures for the George or
Frank using 85 octane pine sap. What I do have is their TAIC reports
with the performance figures (some calculated) using 92 octane and
methanol. Information for the F4U and F8F comes from the Bureau of
Aeronautics, Navy Dept. Airplane Characteristics and Performance
reports dated 1 March 1946 and 1 June 1945 respectively.
The WW2 area Speed numbers look like this:
N1K2-J (N1K1-J) / Ki.84-1a / F4U-4 / F8F-1
Altitude / Speed
Meters / mph
S.L.......355 / 362 / 389 / 394
1,000,,,,369 / 379 / 389 / 413
2,000....369 / 389 / 396 / 417
3,000....375 / 389 / 408 / 413
4,000....392 / 388 / 420 / 409
5,000....408 / 414 / 432 / 424
6,000....408 / 426 / 445 / 434
7,000....402 / 426 / 445 / 434
8,000....393 / 416 / 454 / 431
9,000....387 / 403 / 435 / 425
10,000..366 / 387 / 416 / NG
11,000..NG / NG. / 397 / NG
The Bearcat leads this event up to about 3,500, the Corsair takes over from
there up.
Maximum Power WEP (hp.): 2,050 / 2,040 / 2,380 / 2,400
Combat Weight (lb.): 7,717 / 7,940 / 12,420 / 9,334
Wing Loading (lb./ sq. ft.): 30.51 / 35.13 / 39.55 / 38.25
Power Loading (lb./ hp.): 3.764 / 3.892 / 5.218 / 3.889
The Japanese fighters are more maneuverable at lower speeds and altitudes.
Up high in the thin air the Corsairs stronger engine and large wing give it the
advantage at higher speeds.
The Power Loading figures do not give all the answers. The stronger engine
and larger propeller puts the Bearcat in the lead of acceleration. The Corsair
comes in second here with the information I have to date.
N1K2-J (N1K1-J) / Ki.84-1a / F4U-4 / F8F-1
Altitude / Climb
S.L.......4400 / 4275 / 3870 / 4570
1,000....4410 / 4350 / 3500 / 4220
2,000....3950 / 3890 / 3455 / 3705
3,000....3680 / 3570 / 3410 / 3290
4,000....3700 / 3590 / 3365 / 3275
5,000....3760 / 3610 / 3320 / 3115
6,000....3340 / 3350 / 2915 / 2665
7,000....2850 / 2870 / 2840 / 2220
8,000....2260 / 2280 / 2380 / 1755
9,000....1700 / 1720 / 1870 / 1325
10,000..1210 / 1175 / 1350 / .-875
11,000...-130 / .-575 /.-860 / .-425
Range on internal fuel (ml.): 670 / 1,025 / 1,005 / 1,140
Armament: 4 x 20 mm. / 2 x 12.7 mm.+2 x 20 mm. / 6 x 0.5 in. / 4 x 0.5 in.
Combat Operational: January 1945 / September 1944 / May 1945
No F8F-1 unit became combat operational before the end of WW2.
The F4U-1D became operational on 3 January 1945 and was the true
contemporary of the N1K2-J. The F4U-1C with 4 x 20 mm became
operational over Okinawa in April 1945.
Jeff
combat operational during WW2, and neither did the A7M.
OK, I'mover the initial shock now. I have no WEP figures for the George or
Frank using 85 octane pine sap. What I do have is their TAIC reports
with the performance figures (some calculated) using 92 octane and
methanol. Information for the F4U and F8F comes from the Bureau of
Aeronautics, Navy Dept. Airplane Characteristics and Performance
reports dated 1 March 1946 and 1 June 1945 respectively.
The WW2 area Speed numbers look like this:
N1K2-J (N1K1-J) / Ki.84-1a / F4U-4 / F8F-1
Altitude / Speed
Meters / mph
S.L.......355 / 362 / 389 / 394
1,000,,,,369 / 379 / 389 / 413
2,000....369 / 389 / 396 / 417
3,000....375 / 389 / 408 / 413
4,000....392 / 388 / 420 / 409
5,000....408 / 414 / 432 / 424
6,000....408 / 426 / 445 / 434
7,000....402 / 426 / 445 / 434
8,000....393 / 416 / 454 / 431
9,000....387 / 403 / 435 / 425
10,000..366 / 387 / 416 / NG
11,000..NG / NG. / 397 / NG
The Bearcat leads this event up to about 3,500, the Corsair takes over from
there up.
Maximum Power WEP (hp.): 2,050 / 2,040 / 2,380 / 2,400
Combat Weight (lb.): 7,717 / 7,940 / 12,420 / 9,334
Wing Loading (lb./ sq. ft.): 30.51 / 35.13 / 39.55 / 38.25
Power Loading (lb./ hp.): 3.764 / 3.892 / 5.218 / 3.889
The Japanese fighters are more maneuverable at lower speeds and altitudes.
Up high in the thin air the Corsairs stronger engine and large wing give it the
advantage at higher speeds.
The Power Loading figures do not give all the answers. The stronger engine
and larger propeller puts the Bearcat in the lead of acceleration. The Corsair
comes in second here with the information I have to date.
N1K2-J (N1K1-J) / Ki.84-1a / F4U-4 / F8F-1
Altitude / Climb
S.L.......4400 / 4275 / 3870 / 4570
1,000....4410 / 4350 / 3500 / 4220
2,000....3950 / 3890 / 3455 / 3705
3,000....3680 / 3570 / 3410 / 3290
4,000....3700 / 3590 / 3365 / 3275
5,000....3760 / 3610 / 3320 / 3115
6,000....3340 / 3350 / 2915 / 2665
7,000....2850 / 2870 / 2840 / 2220
8,000....2260 / 2280 / 2380 / 1755
9,000....1700 / 1720 / 1870 / 1325
10,000..1210 / 1175 / 1350 / .-875
11,000...-130 / .-575 /.-860 / .-425
Range on internal fuel (ml.): 670 / 1,025 / 1,005 / 1,140
Armament: 4 x 20 mm. / 2 x 12.7 mm.+2 x 20 mm. / 6 x 0.5 in. / 4 x 0.5 in.
Combat Operational: January 1945 / September 1944 / May 1945
No F8F-1 unit became combat operational before the end of WW2.
The F4U-1D became operational on 3 January 1945 and was the true
contemporary of the N1K2-J. The F4U-1C with 4 x 20 mm became
operational over Okinawa in April 1945.
Jeff
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GregP
Major
I HATE it when that happens ...
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Finished post #15.
- Thread starter
- #18
A good habit to get into with a few forums - just before hitting the post/send button, do a quick 'Select All' [Ctrl] + [A] and 'Copy' [Ctrl] + [C].
Then if your post gets eaten you can just paste what you copied into a new message and try again.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Thank you for the information Greyman.
I was just reading over this thread and noticed that in post #6 I made reference
to the Ki.100's vertical maneuverability. The Ki.100 did have very good diving
capabilities but it should have read the Ki.100's horizontal maneuverability. I
have made the changes necessary in order to keep my insanity in check.
I was just reading over this thread and noticed that in post #6 I made reference
to the Ki.100's vertical maneuverability. The Ki.100 did have very good diving
capabilities but it should have read the Ki.100's horizontal maneuverability. I
have made the changes necessary in order to keep my insanity in check.
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