Nachtjaegers shooting down Allied nightfighters

[markstuk]

"An unlikely combination of events but eventually the odds catch up with you"

As both a pilot and instructor one of the things I try to point out that it's usually the one other thing going wrong on top of all the other things you're trying to cope with that kills you... The other thing I point out is that even if you do everything right there is still a small, but real, chance that you will get killed regardless. Idiocy of course, dramatically increases the chances of this outcome

 

[timshatz]

Great post Markstuk. Very true. Plenty of people die in an accident where the chain started two hours before they got in the plane. Then there's luck. Rather be lucky than profficient any day. Being both is better.

 

[Erich]

well the thread like many is getting off the main point of the original poster.

will try and include Lw pilot/Crews scoring against Mossie NF's, most likely as stated impossible.

you that are interested may I suggest Michael Balss 2 volumes on the Nachtjäger losses and Theo Boitens 2 volumes Nachtjagd war diaries.

 

[Civettone]

No you guys are not seeing from the point of view of a night fighter pilot. Non combat losses are always a factor to be reckoned with. But these could do a large extent be controlled, especially if the pilot was experienced. They were known and understood. Return fire by a bomber is also something which you have control over: you can expect it if you decide to attack a bomber.

But getting shot at, totally out of the blue by an enemy you don't see... that is TERRIFYING !!

We can look at it from a historical PoV and get the statistics and tell ourselves that these guys hardly had any reason to fear the Mosquito, and while you're at it remove the rear gun for a couple mph extra speed ... and you would have one very very angry NJ crew !

Kris

 

[davebender]

getting shot at, totally out of the blue by an enemy you don't see... that is TERRIFYING !!

Getting ambushed is just another day at the office for members of the armed forces during wartime.

 

[parsifal]

Even I would admit to the low numbers of Mosquito fighters attached to Bomber Command. I have read that peak strength of the "Intruder" groups did not exceed 132. There were many times that number os Mosquito Bombers, so it would be logical to surmise that the majority of Mosquito losses were in the bomber formations.

I would hazard a guess and claim that Mosquito NFs in general gave a lot more than they received. Not meaning any disrespect to the NJs, but the Mosquito was a very capable weapons platform, with a lot of electronic gadgetry to help them out. Its just not logical to me to claim that Mosquitoes were torn apart by the German Nightfighters (for the Night equipped Me 262s I would make an exception).

 

[tomo pauk]

...
Its just not logical to me to claim that Mosquitoes were torn apart by the German Nightfighters (for the Night equipped Me 262s I would make an exception).

That's true.
It was German NFs that feared Mosquitoes, not the other way around.

 

[davebender]

I agree. So why were most of them employed for missions other then night fighter?

 

[Erich]

Mosquitos were not torn apart except at close range and that is literally the 2cm and 3cm blew the wooden crates right out of the air late 44-45. think the thread is going down hill as members are just posting what is common knowledge or should be.

yes the Mossie crews did not have probs with any Lw NF, the point was they protected their BC comrades as best as possible and succeeded to some degree to follow up and attack Lw NF'sa in attack mode and around searchlight and beacon patterns plus diving down to the Lw airfields itself setting up attacks on landing German craft.

I'd like to see the originator of this thread come back on and state whether or not he is getting answers to his questions

 

[Soren]

Imagine just 200 operational Me262B-1's in July 44, and the Allied night bombing raids would've been in grave danger.

The Mosquitos hadn't a chance against these, once they had successfully spotted one all they could was helplessly sit back and watch it maul its' target and speed away. Furthermore the Me262B-1 could've been used as a dedicated Mosquito hunter, leaving the Ju-88, Bf-110 He-219's to deal with the bombers.

 

[davebender]

They would be hunting bombers, not wasting their time hunting enemy night fighters which were practically non-existant.

 

[Soren]

They would be hunting bombers, not wasting their time hunting enemy night fighters which were practically non-existant.

Most likely yeah. A few would no doubt have been used to hunt down the Mosquitos though, leaving the Ju-88's, Bf-110's He-219's careless in their pursuit of the bombers.

 

[Erich]

you still have the problem of lining up on the rear of a BC heavy with the high speed ratio, one of the chief reasons Welters merry band was delegated to try and close down the harrassment bombings by the LSNF Mossies over BErlin chiefly and major cities northward.

it's anyone's guess of course of July 44 release of the 262 in any variant for night duty. can say as fact the guys flying Fw's and 109's that were moved over the Welters unit were more than excited to fly the single seat 262

 

[tomo pauk]

On a related note, when we could expect the book, Erich?

 

[davebender]

Germany converted the two seat (trainer) version of the Me-262 into a night fighter. Why not do the same thing with the Fw-190A? A few Fw-190A8s were converted into two seat trainers by replacing the MW50 tank with a second cockpit. Why not make the rear cockpit into a radar operator station?

A few Wilde Sau single seat Fw-190 fighters experimented with FuG217 Neptun radar. That didn't work too well as the pilot could not fly and operate the radar at the same time. Having a dedicated radar operator in the back solves the work load problem. Obviously this does not provide a radar package as complete as what the Ju-88 and Me-110 have. On the other hand the Fw-190 has far superior aerial performance. You can catch Mosquito path finders if that is your intention. The standard armament of 4 x MG151/20 cannon will knock down a Mosquito or Lancaster just fine.

 

[Erich]

Tomo, DAve

Tomo hoping for another 2-3 years at it but working on another work of a special JG unit that was involved in Wilde Sau and then later day operations.

Dave

it was considered by the S/E NJG's could not keep pace with the higher altitude LSNF Mossies and even with FuG 217 and Fug 218 kills were minimal until the 3 units involved switched to the up gunned engined G-6/AS 109's. Few kills were accomplished anyway and radar was removed although NJG 11 experimented on early 109 variants G-6/As and G-14/AS, the FuG 217 was quickly discarded, hopeing that eyesight alone and use of searchlight lanes would help in the task of finding Mossies and heavier bombers

 

[ppopsie]

BTW, am new to the discussion but how about the American P-61? I understand it didn't escort the night bombers though.

 

[Erich]

personal data: 2 P-61's were lost to LW NF's on two different missions. in a separate incident one was lost and crashed landed after trying to tackle the rear mg 151/20 of a He 177, the P-61 lost in this case.
in another operation one P-51 overshot a Ju 87D-5 was holed pretty bad by the rear gunner and his twin MG 81 crashing that P-61.

much of this is reference for one of my future book titles.

 

[davebender]

Use the turbo charged BMW801Q engine which produced 1,715 hp @ 40,000 feet. Germany does not have enough chromium to mass produce the turbochargers. However they can make a couple hundred specifically for Wilde Sau aircraft. That should give the pathfinder Mosquitos a nasty surprise.

 

[paradoxguy]

Erich, et al-

I appreciate Erich's interest in whether my questions have been addressed by this thread. I apologize for not responding to this thread recently, I have been dealing with severe neuropathic pain affecting my lower extremities. The neuropathic pain is due to an old spinal injury and has "good and bad" periods. Unfortunately the pain is in one of its bad phases and prevented me from responding until now.

In response to Erich's query as to whether my original questions had been addressed, yes, they have as best I understand. I understand that the Nachtjaegers had few encounters with Allied (essentially British) nightfighters in 1943-1944 simply because the RAF did not send nightfighter escorts with the bomber streams, as Davebender pointed out, and despite the latter's heavy losses and used nightfighting aircraft, mainly Mosquitos, primarily for pathfinding and reconnaissance missions. Even though British nightfighter missions over German-held territory increased after Normandy was secured, I gather that battles between British nightfighters and Nachtjaegers were not very numerous and not enough for a single Nachtjaeger to be able to score many victories over opposing nightfighters, certainly not enough to become an ace. As Erich pointed out, lost and incomplete records exacerbate knowing who and what shot down who and what and how many.

I gather from Erich's informative posts that He 219's shot down more night Mosquitos than any other Luftwaffe nightfighter--please correct me if I am wrong here. The only topic of the issues I posted I haven't seen addressed is how the "traditional" Luftwaffe nightfighters (Me 110, Ju 88) other than the He 219 fared in combat against Mosquitos and other Allied nightfighters. My impression is the Mosquito was the best WWII non-jet nightfighter and the P-61 was not too far behind. Hence, I'm curious if the later Me 110G-4 and Ju 88G could hold their own against the Mosquito and P-61. Incidentally, my ignorance prevented me from knowing before that the P-61 saw combat against the Luftwaffe; my previous impression was that the P-61 fought only in the Pacific theatre.

I greatly appreciate the many posts and responses generated by this thread. Although many posts did not directly address my questions, I still found them informative and interesting for the most part and I feel the bulk of my questions have been answered. I'm glad that a vigorous discussion has ensued in response to this thread, even if some parts were off-topic, as this often answers questions I hadn't thought to ask before. If anyone could directly address my remaining question about how the latter-war non-jet Luftwaffe nightfighters fared against the Mosquito and other contemporary Allied nightfighters, I'd be appreciative.

Thanks,
PG