Named IJN 341st kokutai helmet - help!

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by kaigunair, Jun 27, 2008.

  1. kaigunair

    kaigunair Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    This is my first post on this forum, so please be kind.

    My main focus is ww2 IJN, mainly flight gear, and was wondering if anyone knew where I could get additional info on IJN airgroups, specifically the 341st kokutai. Books, internet sites, japanese references, etc, anything...

    I've been trying to learn more about this helmet, and recently got a break. I had posted this label of a type 2 flight helmet label on another forum, and was told that the kanji "lion unit" meant it was the 341st kokutai, which was one of the first all N1K2-J (George/Shinden) units.

    Can't seem to find any lists online. I'd really like to see if this particular pilot was listed in the rolls.

    Thanks in advance!
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Micdrow

    Micdrow “Archive”
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    7,711
    Likes Received:
    416
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Occupation:
    Manufacture Tech
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Check out the following book.

    Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in WWII
    By Ikuhiko Hata and Yasuho Izawa Translated by Don Cyril Gorham
     
  3. JoeB

    JoeB Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2006
    Messages:
    809
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    As mentioned, sorry to duplicate, a standard reference book is "Japanese Navy Aces and Fighter Units in World War II" by Hata and Izawa, the English translation by Naval Institute Press. It has a short chapter on each air group including 341st (pp 190-192).

    On web I assume you googled in English already. In Japanese it's either the arabic numbers 341 or Chinese numbers 三四一 followed by 'navy' 海軍 and 'air group' 航空隊 in whatever combination of quotation marks " " you want to try. "三四一海軍航空隊" for example yields pages like:
    第三四一海軍航空隊 - Wikipedia
    ?????????????????????????????? ??????????
    ??????????????? ??????????

    The latter series of pages has often good summaries of unit actions with pilot names, but this pilot's surname, which I read as 友田, Tomoda (I'm not that good at reading handwritten Japanese) is not mentioned on any web page that also has 341 Air Group, that I could quickly find. The name also doesn't appear in the index of Hata/Izawa. Did the person who told you 'lion' (first character fifth column fourth row; I guess so, but hard to make out) tell you the given name of the pilot (3rd and 4th characters in third column, fourth row)? I can't make those out either.

    Joe
     
  4. kaigunair

    kaigunair Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Thanks for the info. I just read up on the 341st and its component hikotai's from that book. Thanks.

    My dad translated the name as Handa Katsume, but he also once translated the kanji for the shusui jet airplane as akisui, which confused the heck out of me for a while.

    I believe the rank is Joto Hiko hei, or enlisted Superior Flier. Unfortunately my home computer can't do kanji due to a faulty install, so I'll have to wait until the week day to try.

    But thank you for the info so far!!
     
  5. ppopsie

    ppopsie Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2006
    Messages:
    461
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    to read and receive
    Location:
    East end
    I see the owner's name was Tanda Katsumi Higher Petty Officer. Here the rank notation is based on Naval Ministry's official glossary in 1943. I uploaded two pdf files; issues of 1909 and 1943.

    The website I found these is owned by a retired JMSDF gunnery officer. There are very interesting materials about the naval gunnery on the site but are all in Japanese. At least these two files are quite useful to some, I think. :rolleyes:

    海軍砲術学校
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Micdrow

    Micdrow “Archive”
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    7,711
    Likes Received:
    416
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Occupation:
    Manufacture Tech
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Great job on the files ppopsie, they are a great resourse for those who cant read or write japanese. Im thinking of starting a thread in the technical section for military translations under the aircrews section if thats ok with you. I dont want to see these files get buried.
     
  7. ppopsie

    ppopsie Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2006
    Messages:
    461
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    to read and receive
    Location:
    East end
    Great job > no sir, but the owner let readers to do that. I am grateful to him because these help my job tremendously too.

    One important notice; most the kanji letters in these two documents are of old pre-war type and are more complicated than the ones we have today. Also the pdf files are not printable.

    Technical section for military translations > that is good idea. Go on please.
     
  8. Micdrow

    Micdrow “Archive”
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    7,711
    Likes Received:
    416
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Occupation:
    Manufacture Tech
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Thanks ppopsie, I have a manual written by the US War Department called Handbook on Japanese Military Forces. It has Japanese Army and Navy signs for maps, miltary terms and such translated from japanese to english. I want to scan some of the pages and post them with your info above when I get a chance. I have another simular book on the German side as well. Im kinda interested in seeing how accurate these translations were.
     
  9. JoeB

    JoeB Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2006
    Messages:
    809
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I assume the third is right. Tanda Katsumi= 反田勝美? The second and third answers read the first character as 反 not 友 as I did. The worn handwriting looks about midway in between to me, but 2:1 and I don't read so well, I assume I'm mistaken. 反 can be pronounced 'han' as well as 'tan' but according to the listing on page below, in that name it's 'tan', and the name Handa uses a different first character. Although, I remember a friend's surname was 山上 which she pronounced Yamajō, but it's Yamaue only in the list below, which she said was often a native speaker's first guess.

    No Tanda and one Handa (but an officer, not the same guy) in Hata/Izawa's index. Either full name "反田勝美" or "友田勝美" has several web hits but no WWII pilots.

    ¤é¥»±`¥Î©m¤óªí

    Joe
     
  10. kaigunair

    kaigunair Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Looks like I got the rank wrong. According to the pdf, its higher flight petty officer. Another person translated it correctly to Joto Hiko Heiso. He also said name wise, it could be Handa or Sorita , Katsuyoshi or Katsumi.

    I was wondering if there were any resouces to pull up a list of pilots in the 341st kokutai, or any of the hikotai groups it was composed of: the 401,402, and 701.

    very exciting!
     
  11. kaigunair

    kaigunair Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    I was wondering if the kanji of the first name could be misread? currently I think the interpretation is 勝美. Are there close characters, especially for the 2nd kanji? Given the current characters, 勝 could be katsu or masa, and 美 is "bi" or utsuku or shi.

    Based on the separate characters of the last name, the name combos' could be handa, honda, or tomoda, maybe also yuda, yuden, sorita, sorida.

    Its a long shot, but the only named pilots I can find are aces, so any posibility the name is one of these: (I can't look up the characters)
    Handa Watari
    Honda Minoru
    Honda Toshiaki
    Shiga Masami
     
  12. ppopsie

    ppopsie Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2006
    Messages:
    461
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    to read and receive
    Location:
    East end
    Tanda and Sorita are fairly possible whilst handa is not improbable. The given name 勝美 possibly be pronounced as Katsumi, Masami or Katsuyoshi. I don't know of other ways.

    If you go on the search just use the kanji characters. How to pronounce won't matter at all. Japanese personal names are sometimes source of headache even to us.
     
  13. kaigunair

    kaigunair Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    thanks ppopsie. I was wondering if the two kanji for the first name could be off, especially 美. Similar to 反 vs 友. Are there similar kanji for the first name? I've also run into the old versus new way of writing kanji and was wondering if a similar situation might be happening here with the name?
     
  14. kaigunair

    kaigunair Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    for example, 孝幸 (found these kanji after handa in a goggle search...)?
     
Loading...

Share This Page