No Fw-190?

[tomo pauk]

For sake of discussion, let's say that Fw 190 does not come about - perhaps the no-new-stuff policy is more rigorously put in effect, or whatever plausible reason we can think of. The BMW 801 is still produced.
How might the development of the LW fighter force look like? Net loss, net gain? Heinkel gets a blessing? Bf 109 is obvioulsy even more needed now, at least until something fundamentally new is mature enough for mass production. Earlier introduction of jet fighters (historical types, or other)?

 

[SaparotRob]

Even with the no new stuff policy, the Bf-109 is getting on a bit. They'd have to replace it with something. The 262 program gets a boost?

 

[swampyankee]

Even with the no new stuff policy, the Bf-109 is getting on a bit. They'd have to replace it with something. The 262 program gets a boost?

Wouldn't that violate a "no new stuff" policy?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

"No new stuff" will only last as long as the Allies field the same 1940 designs. Once new Allied designs come online, the Germans will stuff a big engine into a small airframe again. I mean, they were already spamming -109s, but by 1944 they'll be needing something new, no matter what.

I doubt they would have gone with jets anyway, given the untried tech involved. On the other hand, we might have seen more and better heavy fighters to counter the growing bombing offensive, and -109s flying top-cover for them.

 

[SaparotRob]

Wouldn't that violate a "no new stuff" policy?

Yeah, I think the thread is a bit of a Catch-22. I can't see flooding the skies with D VIIs so I think something new is implied. He-280?

 

[GrauGeist]

The He280's airframe was production ready before the Me262's prototype flew under jet power.
The issue was the slow progress on it's intended engines. However, when the He280 was demonstrated, the HeS8 engines were allowing it to fly with impressive results - so instead of trying to get the HeS30 working, debug the HeS8 in order to get the He280 into service. Then move on to the HeS30.

And for all that's Holy, leave the He280 alone. Let it be the fighter it was designed to be, not a bomber, not a dive-bomber, not a two man night-fighter or whatever else they could think of.

 

[tomo pauk]

The loss of 20000 of Fw 190s needs to be addressed ASAP. Eg. in 1942, about 2000 of the 190s was produced. So we'd need to have at least 2000 of extra Bf 109s made in that year (or something other that can be made; the choice of possible replacements is not exactly shiny). There is also the thing of non-existence of ~230 of 190s in 1941 - something need to be made there, too.

So an even greater increase of Bf 109 production is the order of the day? Benefits are that 109 is mature and has reliable engine (compared with Fw 190 engine woes) in this time, and obviously it is in production; performance is in the ballpark with the 190. Shortcomings are still the cramped cabin with bad visibility, no rate of roll as on the 190, the 190 was supposed to be sturdier; Bf 109 firepower was no great thing until/unless the gondola cannons were installed.

Fw 190 gave a lot of impetus to the developement of new fighters in the West - this is bound to change in this scenario.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Luftwaffe did have the He112B available in the interim.

Historically, the Fw190 went operational in 1941, about four months after the He280 was demonstrated to the RLM - so it seems to me, that *if* there was no Fw190, an accelerated Heinkel program may have pushed the 280's development forward.
The Fw190 first flew in June 1939, the He280 first flew in September 1940. So both types had a close development timeline.

The bonus with the He280, was that it wouldn't require DB6xx engines, which doomed the Fw187 and other types (and gave rise to the Fw190) and of course, the He280 entering service would have most certainly forced the Allies to come up with a means to counter it.

 

[tomo pauk]

The bonus with the He280, was that it wouldn't require DB6xx engines, which doomed the Fw187 and other types (and gave rise to the Fw190) and of course, the He280 entering service would have most certainly forced the Allies to come up with a means to counter it.

The inherent shortcomings of a twin (need to have double the engine number; uses a lot of fuel) jet (that again doubles the fuel required) might pressure the LW to have an 1-engined jet fighter much earlier than it was historically so?
Granted, the He 280 in numbers in 1943 in the ETO represents a new set of problems for the 'daylight' part of the WAllies there.

BTW - where to install all the BMW 801s now? Candidates probably being Ju 88, He 111, He 219, Ju 87, Ju 288, Me 410? The expanded Bf 109 production will require another many thousand of DB 601/605 engines.

 

[SaparotRob]

In 1943, a twin engine set up is required to get that "oomph". I don't think the LW would've considered a cheaply made disposable jet interceptor.

 

[GrauGeist]

In 1943, a twin engine set up is required to get that "oomph". I don't think the LW would've considered a cheaply made disposable jet interceptor.

Heinkel's He178, which was more of a proof-of-concept than an intended warplane, was single engined.

 

[SaparotRob]

Heinkel's He178, which was more of a proof-of-concept than an intended warplane, was single engined.

That's what I was talking about. Perhaps a bit too much hyperbole. I was thinking about its use of non strategic materials.


Edit: I also thought that a replacement fighter/interceptor would imply heavy firepower. Hence a twin engine design.

 

[tomo pauk]

In 1943, a twin engine set up is required to get that "oomph". I don't think the LW would've considered a cheaply made disposable jet interceptor.

It does not need to be cheaply made, nor a disposable. Sorta 'jet Bf 109'?

 

[SaparotRob]

Sorry, designing turbo jet powered Messerschmidts is a bit above my pay grade.

 

[tomo pauk]

Sorry, designing turbo jet powered Messerschmidts is a bit above my pay grade.

Willy's designers were mooting a few, so we don't have to Like the Lippsich P.15 and P.20 (Me 163 was a parts donor). Or perhaps the "baby P.1101" with fixed wings will do he trick?
From the competition, the Ta 183 looks the part, so does the B&V P.211.02.

 

[Denniss]

Most of the Fw 190 manufacturers were actually producing Bf 109s earlier on so cranking out more Bf 109s would not be a major problem unless DB can't keep up with engine production. But they could cancel the Bf 110 instead or try to get 801s on them.
Ju 88 and Do 217 were already prepared to use 801s

 

[tomo pauk]

Most of the Fw 190 manufacturers were actually producing Bf 109s earlier on so cranking out more Bf 109s would not be a major problem unless DB can't keep up with engine production. But they could cancel the Bf 110 instead or try to get 801s on them.

After 1941, there seems to be 2000+- of Bf 110s manufactured per Wkipedia, so if these are not made there is 4000+- DB engines to help out.

The non existence of the fighter-bomber and 'longer-ranged' bomber versions of the 190s are perhaps the greatest losses for the LW? More than 4500 of those were produced combined.

Ju 88 and Do 217 were already prepared to use 801s

Of course.
The Ju 88 with BMW 801, as it was the 88G1, should be a very useful night fighter, especially with engines now earlier available in greater quantities, and with most likely Bf 110 being actually phased out this early in the war.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

After 1941, there seems to be 2000+- of Bf 110s manufactured per Wkipedia, so if these are not made there is 4000+- DB engines to help out.

Would additional -109s (or other hypothetical fighter models) be able to interfere with the CBO like the Zerstorers/Nachtjagd did, albeit unsuccessfully in the end? Forgive the perhaps ignorant question, but would 1000 additional fighters per year (1941-45) make that much difference spread between three widely-separated fronts? Your thoughts?

 

[tomo pauk]

Would additional -109s (or other hypothetical fighter models) be able to interfere with the CBO like the Zerstorers/Nachtjagd did, albeit unsuccessfully in the end? Forgive the perhaps ignorant question, but would 1000 additional fighters per year (1941-45) make that much difference spread between three widely-separated fronts? Your thoughts?

(my bold)
We (or, rather, the Luftwaffe) are starting from the big deficit of 15-16 thousand of Fw 190 fighters per this thread, as well as bomb-carrying Fw 190s that amout to a deficit of another 4500+- A/C. Production of the Bf 109s perhaps combined with some other design ( I favor a jet-engined fighter) 1st needs to fill that gap, totaling to about 20000 aircraft in 4 years.
As for the bolded question - it boils down on how good the additional fighters are. IMO, those need to significantly out-perform the best Allied opposition, since LW fights outnumbered. So if WAllies fight with fighters capable for, lets say 420 mph and excellent climb, they probably need to go 450+ mph and even better climb, while also sporting useful firepower to kill 4-engined bombers. If the WAllies can do 430-450 mph (and they can from early 1944 on; P-47 is already touching 430 mph in 1943), LW better have 470-500 mph fighters at hand - in reality, the only viable solution for that level of performance is a jet-propelled fighter.
LW also needs a lot of the over-performing fighters, not the dribs and drabs like the Me 262 was available.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

(my bold)
We (or, rather, the Luftwaffe) are starting from the big deficit of 15-16 thousand of Fw 190 fighters per this thread, as well as bomb-carrying Fw 190s that amout to a deficit of another 4500+- A/C. Production of the Bf 109s perhaps combined with some other design ( I favor a jet-engined fighter) 1st needs to fill that gap, totaling to about 20000 aircraft in 4 years.
As for the bolded question - it boils down on how good the additional fighters are. IMO, those need to significantly out-perform the best Allied opposition, since LW fights outnumbered. So if WAllies fight with fighters capable for, lets say 420 mph and excellent climb, they probably need to go 450+ mph and even better climb, while also sporting useful firepower to kill 4-engined bombers. If the WAllies can do 430-450 mph (and they can from early 1944 on; P-47 is already touching 430 mph in 1943), LW better have 470-500 mph fighters at hand - in reality, the only viable solution for that level of performance is a jet-propelled fighter.
LW also needs a lot of the over-performing fighters, not the dribs and drabs like the Me 262 was available.

When we consider the early provenance of planes like the Corsair or the Mustang, those German planes better be coming on-line fast, I mean mos' rickey-tick.