No Fw-190?

[GrauGeist]

That's what I was talking about. Perhaps a bit too much hyperbole. I was thinking about its use of non strategic materials.


Edit: I also thought that a replacement fighter/interceptor would imply heavy firepower. Hence a twin engine design.

The early twin jet engine design followed the early twin engined "fighter" design, in that two engines were needed for range and to carry the weight of the airframe.

The He178 was able to fly with a single HeS3 because of it's size. It weighed about 3,500 pounds empty.

 

[ThomasP]

Assuming the jets could not be hurried along significantly . . .

And if we assume that the BMW801 engines go to the twin-engine aircraft . . .

I would think that if expansion of the 109 production occurred - by other manufacturers - then the development of proposed improved variants might be pushed along faster. I seem to recall that there were high(er) altitude variants proposed early on, as well as ground attack versions. This would lead to further improvements up through at least 1944. IIRC there was a high-HP Jumo powered variant proposed. Who knows what they might have managed to come up with if they had had the political and monetary backing to get it into production?

 

[ThomasP]

Otherwise, maybe start up/support continued production of a detail improved French, Romanian, or Czech airframe?

D,520 with HS 12Z or DB601
B.35 with HS 12Z or DB601
IAR.80 BMW801

Maybe others?

 

[tomo pauk]

Otherwise, maybe start up/support continued production of a detail improved French, Romanian, or Czech airframe?

D,520 with HS 12Z or DB601
B.35 with HS 12Z or DB601
IAR.80 BMW801

Maybe others?

MC.202/205? It was very fast on modest horsepower (so were the other listed above, and so was the Bf 109). Latest batches of the 202 were outfitted with two cannons, not many was made of those before productionswitched to the 205. Shortcoming - it took inordinate amount of manhours to make, in fashion with other Italian aircraft/companies; Reggianne were probably the worst offenders here?
D.520 was the one with a lot of fuel, so it can be a plus to have it in service with better engine so it can cover the new war theaters well. IAR.80 - perhaps better with a lighter engine (DB 601/605, or Jumo 211?), it was a small aircraft to begin with.

And if we assume that the BMW801 engines go to the twin-engine aircraft . . .

I would think that if expansion of the 109 production occurred - by other manufacturers - then the development of proposed improved variants might be pushed along faster. I seem to recall that there were high(er) altitude variants proposed early on, as well as ground attack versions.

Something I've whipped from Wikipedia entries for the Bf 109X (fuselage) and 109T (basic wing layout; note that 109T have had a bigger wing than other 109s, bar the 109H), with a pair of MG 151/20 tucked in the wing root, with receiver at place previously taken by radiators. Yes, it will require afew thousand of BMW 801 not to go all in the twin-engined A/C:

(click for bigger picture)

 

[Shortround6]

The D. 520 had a few problems.
The high fuel capacity wasn't supposed to be used for combat (Just like the P036 and the early P-40s weren't suppose to use the full internal tanks for combat)
The 520 had some handling problems.
The 520 had some pretty poor vision problem over the over the nose.
The 12Y engine was about at the end of it's road.
But the engine was lighter than the DB engine so you have to figure that in.

A lot of efferent for not a lot of result.

 

[tomo pauk]

The D. 520 had a few problems.
The high fuel capacity wasn't supposed to be used for combat (Just like the P036 and the early P-40s weren't suppose to use the full internal tanks for combat)
The 520 had some handling problems.
The 520 had some pretty poor vision problem over the over the nose.
The 12Y engine was about at the end of it's road.
But the engine was lighter than the DB engine so you have to figure that in.

A lot of efferent for not a lot of result.

By the time the combat is joined, a good deal of fuel is expanded?

But the main brick wall the other fighters (that Germany might consider producing for their needs) were hitting was the Bf 109 itself. It was a bargain to produce, and it performed well or very well when power available is taken in the account. It was not an ideal fighter, not by a long shot - thus let the heir be jet-propelled in this scenario?

 

[ThomasP]

The jet is the obvious(?) best bet, but is it reasonable to expect any number of airframes being available in 1941? I have not looked at the types other than the ones that ended up in service (Me262, Me163, Ar234) so do not know if there were any realistic projects in advanced development in 1939-40.

Could the He280 (and its engines) have been a viable product in the time frame we are talking about?

If so, that would be a scary scenario for the Allies.

 

[GrauGeist]

The jet is the obvious(?) best bet, but is it reasonable to expect any number of airframes being available in 1941? I have not looked at the types other than the ones that ended up in service (Me262, Me163, Ar234) so do not know if there were any realistic projects in advanced development in 1939-40.

Could the He280 (and its engines) have been a viable product in the time frame we are talking about?

If so, that would be a scary scenario for the Allies.

Yes to the He280 - the temporary HeS8 engines gave it good performance, they just needed a bit more time to debug.

The HeS30 jet engine was more powerful and intended to be the HeS8's replacement, but it was sidelined for the troublesome HeS011.

Meanwhile, the BMW003 and Jumo004 were still in development, mush heavier and less thrust-to-weight ratio than the HeS30.

Also, as mentioned earlier, the He280 was production ready before the Me262 prototype first flew under jet power.

The He162 was a desperation move and the Me163 was a good idea, but not very effective.

If the jet program had been embraced by the RLM when the He178 was demonstrated to them in 1939, with funding for development to both the aircraft and engines, then the 280 would have been available by 1941, the Me262 by '42/'43 at the latest. The Ar234 would have been ushered un ahead if it's historical timeline and even the Hs132 would have made it to production.

This is looking at the historical types that did exist, the Ho229 was, imho, more of a "project" than a serious contender for front line combat.

 

[tomo pauk]

The jet is the obvious(?) best bet, but is it reasonable to expect any number of airframes being available in 1941? I have not looked at the types other than the ones that ended up in service (Me262, Me163, Ar234) so do not know if there were any realistic projects in advanced development in 1939-40.

Jets are probably out of question in 1941 and in 1942.

Could the He280 (and its engines) have been a viable product in the time frame we are talking about?

If so, that would be a scary scenario for the Allies.

It probably could, even with the HeS-8 not being as powerful as the Jumo 004.
Allies will need to step-up the game with great numbers of high-performance fighters with range to cover best part of Germany already for 1943, as well as stepping up the development of jet engine technology and aerodynamics.

 

[GTX]

What about the Heinkel He 100? It was available around the same time as the Fw190 - it actually flew about 18mths beforehand. The issue of using the same engine as the Bf109 (and thus shortage of overall supply) might be overcome by using the Jumo 211 or even Jumo 213 and changing the cooling system to one more conventional (something that would probably be needed anyway).

 

[Shortround6]

The He 100 got most of it's performance from being a smaller airframe than a Bf 109 and also by being more specific tailored to the DB 601 engine.
Some of it's 18 month time advantage would disappear and much of it's performance advantage would disappear with a conventional cooling system.

 

[GrauGeist]

What about the Heinkel He 100? It was available around the same time as the Fw190 - it actually flew about 18mths beforehand. The issue of using the same engine as the Bf109 (and thus shortage of overall supply) might be overcome by using the Jumo 211 or even Jumo 213 and changing the cooling system to one more conventional (something that would probably be needed anyway).

The He100 was designed around the DB6xx engine, in order to use the Jumo211 (which was also in demand at the time), the He100 would have to be completely redesigned, so Heinkel shelved the project.

 

[tomo pauk]

What about the Heinkel He 100? It was available around the same time as the Fw190 - it actually flew about 18mths beforehand. The issue of using the same engine as the Bf109 (and thus shortage of overall supply) might be overcome by using the Jumo 211 or even Jumo 213 and changing the cooling system to one more conventional (something that would probably be needed anyway).

He 100 that has cooling system removed from wings and fuselage (oil cooling heat exchanger was just aft the pilot) gains a lot of useful volume. It might've looked a lot like this wonderful side elevation by Logan Hartke (obviously with German insignia instead of Japanese): link.
Engine situation will require quite a bit of shuffling in order for the He 100 to get the engines it needs, it was pretty much tailored around the DB 601s. Granted, people were making even the tougher engine swaps work.

Layout of internals of the He 100D as it was tested by the Soviets:

 

[GTX]

Not denying what happened in the real world with the He100 and the design issues re the engine etc, but if we're talking about a scenario without the Fw190 I think the only realistic alternatives will be either more Bf109s (which already runs up against the engine capacity issues) or going for something available such as the He100. The only compromise solutions would be either to get BMW to start building DBs or perhaps have a re-engined Bf109...

 

[tomo pauk]

The only compromise solutions would be either to get BMW to start building DBs or perhaps have a re-engines Bf109...

See post #24 here.

 

[GTX]

- I was also thinking a Jumo211/213 powered Bf109 (almost a back to the future with the early A/B/C/D series...

 

[tomo pauk]

- I was also thinking a Jumo211/213 powered Bf109 (almost a back to the future with the early A/B/C/D series...

There were such aircraft made (sorta). The Jumo 211-powered was the Avia S.199, draggy as a brick. Jumo 213A-powered Bf would've probably looked like the Me 209 II (1943), that we have discussed recently here.