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Hmm perhaps. If only looking at aircraft going to Brit/Commonwealth units, it's still useful for the planners to consider all the aircraft being ordered (Hurricanes, Warhawks, Mustangs) and manage allocation/distribution of resources accordingly. Overboosting/WER would have been a bonus after the fact, but potentially sacrificing hurricane performance in favor of Warhawk/Mustang performance would be the more serious initial consideration.
The drag comparison here is for the R-1830 and not R-1820 powered P-36, I assume. And aside from the possibility of using a 2-stage R-1830 (with or without adapting a tighter cowling and fan), the Allison seems to be preferable on the whole. (you might manage to save some weight -and gain climb- with a single stage R-1830 ... maybe even the 2-stage, not positive there)
Still, compared to the P-40B/C/D/E (especially before WER clearance), a 2-stage twin wasp powered P-36 (or P-42) seems like it'd have some advantages above 10,000 ft.
neil...your second scan about spark plugs....i remember my father talking about the subject years ago. the plugs the fighter groups ( merlin mustangs ) were supplied withtended to foul up with lead after aggressive flying. they switched to a plug from another country to remedy the problem. i thought he said the originals spares were a uk plug and they switched to an american plug (AC delco ) but i may not have heard him correctly. but i do know the the different plug did not foul out nearly as bad as the original. i tried talking to a couple crew chiefs a while back but could not get confirmation one way or the other. do you happen to know what brand they were using as replacement plugs? i am assuming the originals the engines had when shipped from the us had american plugs...after that ???
I was suggesting retro-fitting (and/or adding in the factory) water injection for the existing turbocharged pre-J model P-38s that had detonation/manifold temperature problems due to limited intercooling on up-rated engines.Using the WI instead of inter-coolers does indeed offer some benefits, but also some shortcomings. WI is mostly used for WER; the inter-cooler is useful not just for WER, but also for making military power (= of longer duration). It is much easier to retrofit water injection on an inter-cooled engine (for even more power) than it is to retrofit inter-coolers on the engine that are not designed for it from get-go. The V-1710 flew as inter-cooled engine in 1939 in the XP-38, granted those were air-to-air inter-coolers;it took until 1943 for the 2-stage V-1710 to have WI installed.
Wouldn't an Allison engined Hurrican evaluation aircraft at least be a worthwhile consideration? Not just in terms of re-allocating Ammerican merlins, but in the potential event that there might be further delays/shortages in Packard merlin production.The US cannot supply any (or more than a handful/count on one hand) of Packard Merlins until the start of 1942. Hurricane II production is well established at that point. Americans are 'hoping' the P-40F will solve part of their altitude problem.
you have to find space for the water injection. Corsairs only carried around 10 gallons? P-47s carried over 25 gallons.I was suggesting retro-fitting (and/or adding in the factory) water injection for the existing turbocharged pre-J model P-38s that had detonation/manifold temperature problems due to limited intercooling on up-rated engines.
Wouldn't an Allison engined Hurrican evaluation aircraft at least be a worthwhile consideration? Not just in terms of re-allocating Ammerican merlins, but in the potential event that there might be further delays/shortages in Packard merlin production.
I also believe Pete Law, who knows more about aircraft piston engines than anybody in here. He has over 20 Reno wins as the engine guy, still consults for the Lockheed Skunk Works, and is as much of a walking authority as there is about aviation piston engines. His credentials are impeccable. So are Tony's.
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This has been interesting reading, now I have to jump into the "I knew who" fray.
After Tony LeVier retired, he worked as a safety consultant for Lockheed and started a consulting agency called "SAFE" (I don't remember what the acronym meant). His office was inside the old A1 plant right across from the entrance to Hollywood/ Burbank airport. My ex-wife was a secretary for Lockheed Field Service and had an office right next to Tony's so we spent a lot of time with him, actually went to lunch with him a few times. I first met Tony at a retirement party in 1982. He allowed me to chew his ear off with questions from everything P-38 to F-104. I was surprised that when I reconnected with him in the later 80s he still remembered me. I did an extensive interview with him and it was published in "Aerotech News and Review" around 1989/ 1990. A few things I remember Tony mentioning a that will put all this into perspective;
"Low RPM (IIRC 1600 RPM) high boost, auto lean, just like Lindberg suggested".
At least a few hundred hours of twin time was needed to fully master the P-38. The ETO brass did not like the aircraft.
The engines were government furnished. Any modifications had to be run through the government and Allison for approval, so changes weren't always quickly forthcoming.
There were many things that Kelly Johnson wanted to do to the P-38 but wasn't able to because of war demands. I remember Tony mentioning that Johnson wanted to put a stick in the P-38 and get rid of the yoke.
I'll try to dig though some of my old stuff to see if I could find the article.
A few things I remember Tony [LeVier] mentioning a that will put all this into perspective; "Low RPM (IIRC 1600 RPM) high boost, auto lean, just like Lindberg suggested".
What was the timing of Lindberg's suggestion, which if I remember correctly was in the context of the PTO, vs events unfolding in the ETO?
What was the timing of Lindberg's suggestion, which if I remember correctly was in the context of the PTO, vs events unfolding in the ETO?
To some extent.
There may be more than one thing going on. The low RPM/high boost issue maybe different than manual leaning (vs using auto-lean) of the engine/s once the low rpm/high boost option is selected.
Then you have the Cruising speed issue. The higher throttle settings needed for escort work may be different than the cruise settings when being used as a fighter bomber?
http://zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-38/38FOIC.gif
1944, wow
It took sooo long to resolve something that should have/could have been resolved so much sooner.
I Wonder if the problem would have been recognized and addressed any sooner if the Lightning had been adopted (and more exhaustively tested) by the RAF.That was how I remember it being discussed on a programme about Lindbergh, everyone was worried about running for long periods with a very lean mixture boost levels and RPM wernt mentioned but TV programmes tend to dumb down a bit.
I've read about the yolk vs stick issue several times before and it does seem rather unfortunate even from a paractical standpoint alone. (aside from being easier for fighter pilots to transition to, a stick clutters the cockpit much less, giving easier view to the complex array of instruments lining the P-38 dashboard and a stick might have given more leverage to operate the heavy ailerons on early non-boosted models)At least a few hundred hours of twin time was needed to fully master the P-38. The ETO brass did not like the aircraft.
The engines were government furnished. Any modifications had to be run through the government and Allison for approval, so changes weren't always quickly forthcoming.
There were many things that Kelly Johnson wanted to do to the P-38 but wasn't able to because of war demands. I remember Tony mentioning that Johnson wanted to put a stick in the P-38 and get rid of the yoke.
Hmm ... shifting the topic a bit, but still somewhat relvant: in terms of similar manufacturing cost/resources, would ordering more early model P-38s (or modified turbo-less ones) have been more useful than similar resources going into P-39 and/or P-40 production? (this includes potential use as a medium altitude escort fighter)
The only other logistical problem comes down to pilot training. You'd only need to train around half the pilots, but each pilot would need a considerably greater investment made in their training compared to the P-39, P-40 or the other single engine US fighters. (P-40 more so than P-39 given the handling characteristics) Granted, omitting turbo controls would simplify matters somewhat and simplify some aspects of training compared to the P-47 (plus lack of need to compensate for engine torq in normal operation), but twin-engine training in general would be the major hurtle.
Simply stated - the P-38 was 2x as expensive to operate (fuel/oil), 2x as expensive as the Merlin P-51, 1.5-2x more expensive in Inventory management. - all major negative factors even for a resource rich US trying to provision globally
That still may have been logistically less costly than training double the number of single engine pilots but leaves less room for error in questionable training. On the other hand, average P-38 pilot competency than happened historically may have been better if such emphasis was put on twin engine training.
Anything along this line would also likely be in exception to the P-40/A/B (and Tomahawks) but possibly supplanting P-39D and P-40D production depending how fast the transition to P-38 production actually took place. (the P-38 would have to be a surefire design before distributed/expanded priority production even made sense, lest they have delays that lead to having too few servicable aircraft early-war)
The P-38 development was severely hampered for a couple of reasons - first the delay in recognizing the aerodynamic issues as well as the high altitude turbo/intercooler/engine problems until the P-38J was in production. Second - Lockheed didn't get the funding necessary to acquire tooling and facilities for EFFICIENT mass production until late 1942. Contrast that with the A-36/P-51A contracts which funded mass production on a far larger scale than the P-38, which also drove the unit cost down.
With the P-40's earlier initial production, friendlier handling, longer range, generally better reputation among pilots and crew, and older, proven airframe, keeping that aircraft as the main early 'backup' fighter would have made sense to keep production up until the P-38 was really proven. (and before the Mustang reached mass production) While cancelling the P-39 outright (export orders notwithstanding) in favor of second-sourced P-38 production seems somewhat viable, political issues with Lockheed-Bell cooperation notwithstanding. That and the P-40F and L wouldn't be competing with P-38 engine production either. (aside from the separate topic of those engines being more valuable if mated to P-51 airframes.)
in 1942, because of all the attributes you cited, the demand was high for the P-38 despite the many flaws. It was pulled from ETO to support Africa campaign, and denied to PTO until 1943 for the same reasons - but the demand flowed to keep the P-40s and P-39s in production simply because our armed forces and Commonwealth/USSR allies needed critical mass in the fighter bomber role - which P-38 production couldn't solve until 1944.
Delays in the P-38 testing program with the crash of the original prototype along with the unfortunately lacking modifications made for the non-turbocharged Lightning I hamper the viability for this to have happened. A better performing Lighting I (or at least an improved follow-on) along with more aggressive early testing to work out the major bugs in the initial P-38 design would have all made its merits more clear as a domestic and export aircraft. (to the point the British may have seen it as genuinely worthwhile over purchasing double the P-40s and P-39s)