When 109Es got armour the fuel tank armour was further back than in Fs and Gs. Head armour came after the BoB if one believes Galland's memoirs.
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When 109Es got armour the fuel tank armour was further back than in Fs and Gs. Head armour came after the BoB if one believes Galland's memoirs.
Mike Williams
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- Oct 19, 2006
Fwiw, Prien's JG 53 Vol. 1 shows some photos of BoB era 109s with head armour. At a quick glance it seems to appear starting around autumn 1940. There is an interesting photo (pg. 174) showing "extra armour glass panel in front of the windscreen". Plenty of 109 E-1 losses during the BoB from JG 53 listed (starting pg. 197). So I'm wondering if the front amoured glass, which is very evident, would have typically been external at this time?
Mike Williams
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The Battle of Britain Then and Now lists a bunch of 109 E-1 losses during the BoB.
Mike Williams
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- Oct 19, 2006
Fwiw, an example of a 109 E1 loss, this one from 30 September 1940 (from Battle of Britain Then and Now). Can't tell about armour from this photo 
^And note that the pilot was an Oberleutnant and still using E-1. And I'd not call 7./JG 27 a second tier sqn. BTW 9./JG 26 lost a E-1 on 27 Dec 40 to a CC Blenheim gunner, in that time the pilot was mere Gefreiter, so at the low end of the pecking order, Vol 1 on pp. 96 and 99
PAT303 is right in that that E-4 got as factory-fitted armour plates both protecting the fuel tank and pilot's head. That is from Fernández-Sommerau's Messerschmitt Bf 109 Recognition Manual. The book got much Flak at 12O'Clock site when published but IMHO is a reasonable accurate book. Fernández-Sommerau also notes that armour was also extensively retrofitted to the E-1s and E-3s as a field mod. According to Kurfûrst (at 12 OCH) '...there are some pictures of armored glass fitted, the latter, however, appears to be rare; I suppose it was useful when fighting bombers, and RAF bombers seen in the daylight after France were rare, therefore, the armored glass was probably not preferred...'
Mike Williams
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Hmm, this photo from Prien's II./Jagdgeschwader 27 is interesting: Translation -"A remarkable thing is the capped propeller spinner, which was introduced in the fall of 1940, while a head armour is still missing in the cabin hood." It's not clear but this photo may be from post BoB. I haven't determined yet the date of the crash. I'm seeing loads of photos in various Prien books showing BoB era 109 E's without any apparent pilot armour. Certainly some have rear pilot armour by fall 1940.
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Mike Williams
Senior Airman
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- Oct 19, 2006
Does anyone have a crash report on von Werra's Bf 109 E-4 WerkNr. 1480? It appears to not have pilot head armour in the photos I've seen.
Mike Williams
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Thanks Juha3, I'm not sure that's correct. I'm still working through the matter. Input is most welcome. I found this of interest from Prien's Stab und I./Jagdeschwader 27, pg. 114. Translation - "Also note the head armor in the canopy which was introduced towards the end of the group's operation on the canal in autumn 1940".
Mike Williams
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Excellent Greyman! Bacon for you!
Yes, that's von Werra's 109 E-4. So, no head armour on Bf 109 E-4 (W. Nr. 1480) of Stab II/JG 3 that was shot down over Kent on 5 Sept. 40.
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Mike Williams
Senior Airman
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- Oct 19, 2006
No, 109 E , Werk Nr. 1480 was definitely a Bf 109 E-4 according to my sources. Shown below from Prien II./JG 3 and Battle of Britain Then and Now. No head armour in this photo either.
Mike Williams
Senior Airman
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- Oct 19, 2006
Also this from Stapme, The Biography of Squadron Leader Basil Gerald Stapleton showing Bf 109 E-4 W.N. 1480. I actually think George Bennions of 41 Squadron got Von Werra first and Stapleton from 603 Squadron finished him off.
Mike Williams
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"Two Royal Air Force sergeant aircrew inspect the fuselage of Messerschmitt Bf 109E-4 (W.Nr 1480), piloted by Oberleutnant Franz von Werra, the adjutant of II/JG3 "Udet", which crash-landed on 5 September 1940 at Winchet Hill, near Marden in Kent."
Imperial War Museums Collections
Imperial War Museums Collections
Mike Williams
Senior Airman
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- Oct 19, 2006
Here's another Bf 109 E-4 without pilot's head armour, also shot down on 5 September 1940:
Incident Messerschmitt Bf 109 E-4 1985, 05 Sep 1940
Pilot: Leutnant. Heinz Schnabel. – Captured slightly wounded.
REASON FOR LOSS:
Started at 08.40 hrs. escorting Dornier's that were attacking Croydon. On return from the attack some Spitfires and a Hurricane split this aircraft off from the formation and shot into the engine. The pilot made a good forced landing but engine mounting broke off at the bulkhead. About fifteen .303 strikes were spread over the fuselage.
Markings: 6 in white, outlined in black. Rudder and wing tips white. Shield: a white worm outlined in black, with a red toungue. Two vertical stripes on rudder. Plate identifies aircraft as constructed by Erla NW werke nr. 1985 dated 23/6/40.
Armament: two MG 17 under engine cowling, two wing cannon guns, one marked 20.02 mm and the other 20.04 mm. Under the latter is "Warning" MG F.F. "M". Standard 8 mm bulkhead armour plate but no head protection for pilot.
Incident Messerschmitt Bf 109 E-4 1985, 05 Sep 1940
Pilot: Leutnant. Heinz Schnabel. – Captured slightly wounded.
REASON FOR LOSS:
Started at 08.40 hrs. escorting Dornier's that were attacking Croydon. On return from the attack some Spitfires and a Hurricane split this aircraft off from the formation and shot into the engine. The pilot made a good forced landing but engine mounting broke off at the bulkhead. About fifteen .303 strikes were spread over the fuselage.
Markings: 6 in white, outlined in black. Rudder and wing tips white. Shield: a white worm outlined in black, with a red toungue. Two vertical stripes on rudder. Plate identifies aircraft as constructed by Erla NW werke nr. 1985 dated 23/6/40.
Armament: two MG 17 under engine cowling, two wing cannon guns, one marked 20.02 mm and the other 20.04 mm. Under the latter is "Warning" MG F.F. "M". Standard 8 mm bulkhead armour plate but no head protection for pilot.
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Mike Williams
Senior Airman
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- Oct 19, 2006
Here's another Bf 109 E-4 without pilot head armour, this one from 6/JG 51 shot down 24 August 1940.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
That Bf109E-4 of 6./Jg51 is interesting.
I can't recall many Luftwaffe aircraft of WWII that had artwork aft of the cockpit - I known that it was very common on Luftstreitkrãft aircraft during WWI, but this strikes me as unusual.
I can't recall many Luftwaffe aircraft of WWII that had artwork aft of the cockpit - I known that it was very common on Luftstreitkrãft aircraft during WWI, but this strikes me as unusual.
This is turning into a brilliant thread, a serious thread drift but excellent all the same. The WWII Fighter Gun Debate: Fighter Armour found this site, that Mike bloke on there sounds a bit dodgy but interesting read all the same
