Reluctant Poster
Tech Sergeant
- 1,611
- Dec 6, 2006
Did the B-24 have a higher total loss of non--combat crashes than the B-17 and to what percentage?
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Did the B-24 have a higher total loss of non--combat crashes than the B-17 and to what percentage?
Before Ford was able to provide knockdowns to Fort Worth and Tulsa, San Diego provided 303 knockdowns to Fort Worth and 10 to Tulsa. The number I have for Fort Worth compete assemblies is 1501. Subtracting 303 from 1861 yields 1531 so there is a slight discrepancy. The 10 kits to Tulsa explains the 964 vs 954 in your Tulsa numbers. i also have San Diego production at 7034 not including knockdownsI was just going through the publication Official Munitions Production of the United States the other day, looking at aircraft production by factory. Here is what it lists for B-24 production:
1,861 — Consolidated Vultee, Fort Worth, TX (complete assemblies)
.. 882 — Consolidated Vultee, Fort Worth, TX (Ford knockdowns)
6,724 — Consolidated Vultee, San Diego, CA
.. 964 — Douglas, Tulsa, OK (Ford knockdowns)
6,791 — Ford, Willow Run, MI (complete units)
.. 939 — Ford, Willow Run, MI (for Fort Worth)
.. 954 — Ford, Willow Run, MI (for Tulsa)
.. 966 — North American, Dallas, TX
Yes and no. Some of Fords problems were self inflicted. Willow Run was located in the middle of nowhere with no housing and no means of getting there from Detroit. Labor was hard to attract and turn over was high . Also Ford didn't understand the properties of aluminum.Having worked on defense contracts more than half of my 43 year aviation career, this is not always the case, as it was 75 years ago, at least in the US. All branches of the US military are notorious of continually changing their minds well after the base contract is signed and again I'll use the F-35 was a prime example. Manufacturers DO make suggestions to "the client," this is well documented in the book "Skunk Works," where Kelly Johnson made many "suggestions" to the USAF, sometimes banging his head over their stupidity.
At the same time, if a manufacturer makes too many suggestions, they are viewed as trying to influence the procurement process and then given the evil but fictitious title of "Military Industrial Complex."
One of the interesting facts is that B-24s required more time in modification centers than the B-17All true and thus the creation of Mod Centers that can handle these changes/ modifications without disrupting the production line.
Why is there 40 % savings in personnel and material?One of the interesting facts is that B-24s required more time in modification centers than the B-17
View attachment 665252
Modification time and materials, maintenance time and material , production time and material ( to compensate for greater losses). It all adds upWhy is there 40 % savings in personnel and material?
I think a little bit of both. I think we know that the B-17 design, development and deployment was earlier than the B-24 and I also think that early in the program, Boeing was doing everything they can to see the B-17 was going to be produced. The B-24 started out as a well planned design with it's Davis Airfoil but I think Ruben Fleet did everything he could to ensure that Consolidated was able to produce a heavy bomber (rather than build B-17s under license), therefore the design was rushed and the B-24 turned into a bit of a flying monstrosity rather than a sleek streamlined bomber.That being said the AAF did demand a lot of changes certainly more than they the demanded for the B-17. Was that because the B-17 was simply a better design or perhaps Boeing was more in tune with the requirements of the AAF.
Before Ford was able to provide knockdowns to Fort Worth and Tulsa, San Diego provided 303 knockdowns to Fort Worth and 10 to Tulsa. The number I have for Fort Worth compete assemblies is 1501. Subtracting 303 from 1861 yields 1531 so there is a slight discrepancy. The 10 kits to Tulsa explains the 964 vs 954 in your Tulsa numbers. i also have San Diego production at 7034 not including knockdowns
So F-7s were conversions?Allan G. Blue's The B-24 Liberator — A Pictorial History (a great reference source in my opinion) has this for total production by location:
7,500 — Consolidated, San Diego
3,034 — Consolidated, Fort Worth
6,792 — Ford, Willow Run
.. 964 — Douglas, Tulsa
.. 966 — North American, Dallas
Note that the above includes 740 PB4Y-2 and 34 RY-3 at San Diego; 280 C-87, 6 C-87A, and 5 AT-22 at Fort Worth.
Total production by type:
. . . . 1 XB-24
. . . . 6 LB-30A
. . . 20 Liberator I
. . . . 1 YB-24
. . . . 9 B-24A
. . 140 Liberator II
. . . . 9 B-24C
2,728 B-24D
.. 801 B-24E
.. 430 B-24G
3,100 B-25H
6,678 B-25J
1,667 B-24L
2,593 B-24M
. . . . 1 XB-24N
. . . . 7 YB-24N
. . 280 C-87
. . . . 6 C-87A
. . . . 5 AT-22
. . 740 PB4Y-2
. . . 34 RY-3
19,256 total
So F-7s were conversions?
In general, all recon versions of every manufacturer were Depot modifications. Few ships converted but requiring specialized processes and different skills in the primary plant tended to slow production down and increase direct costs/overheadsSo F-7s were conversions?
No information on the planned end 1945 operational B-29 force.IIRC, the 91st and several other VIII BC (notably 20th BW B-2 groups) had rotated back to states for re-training in B-29 and destined for Okinawa in August/September 1945.
The San Diego Air and Space Museum holds a lot of Consolidated Company Records, plenty of details on B-24 production.Allan G. Blue's The B-24 Liberator — A Pictorial History (a great reference source in my opinion) has this for total production by location:
7,500 — Consolidated, San Diego
3,034 — Consolidated, Fort Worth
6,792 — Ford, Willow Run
.. 964 — Douglas, Tulsa
.. 966 — North American, Dallas
Note that the above includes 740 PB4Y-2 and 34 RY-3 at San Diego; 280 C-87, 6 C-87A, and 5 AT-22 at Fort Worth.
How many B-24 does Allan Blue think were converted to F-7, by B-24 version?
1 RY-3. Order NOa(s)-3236 dated 14 March 1944 was for 112 RY-3, 86 for the USN and 26 for the British, Bureau Numbers 90020 to 90131, but 79 of the USN order were cancelled on V-J day (maybe first 66 then another 13), leaving 33 on the order of which 90020, 21 and 90023 to 50 and 90057 to 59, were built, (26 as JT936, JT937, JT975 to 998), the 33 Bureau Numbers matching the acceptances of 1 for the USN in June 1944, then 19 for Britain December 1944 to March 1945, another 7 from June to August 1945, then 6 for the USN November and December 1945. However Bureau Number 90022 is marked retained by contractor, making it the 34th aircraft. What does Allan Blue say about 90022? If it flew then it is an omission from the production reports, Consolidated say they built it. Air Arsenal North America thinks the entire order was for Britain, with one aircraft retained in the US for trials, so the 86 to 26 split in the USN documents could be reflecting what the order became, not as placed.
The numbers I have match yours from the B-24E on. I do seem to be short a on early San Diego prosecution.Allan G. Blue's The B-24 Liberator — A Pictorial History (a great reference source in my opinion) has this for total production by location:
7,500 — Consolidated, San Diego
3,034 — Consolidated, Fort Worth
6,792 — Ford, Willow Run
.. 964 — Douglas, Tulsa
.. 966 — North American, Dallas
Note that the above includes 740 PB4Y-2 and 34 RY-3 at San Diego; 280 C-87, 6 C-87A, and 5 AT-22 at Fort Worth.
Total production by type:
. . . . 1 XB-24
. . . . 6 LB-30A
. . . 20 Liberator I
. . . . 1 YB-24
. . . . 9 B-24A
. . 140 Liberator II
. . . . 9 B-24C
2,728 B-24D
.. 801 B-24E
.. 430 B-24G
3,100 B-25H
6,678 B-25J
1,667 B-24L
2,593 B-24M
. . . . 1 XB-24N
. . . . 7 YB-24N
. . 280 C-87
. . . . 6 C-87A
. . . . 5 AT-22
. . 740 PB4Y-2
. . . 34 RY-3
19,256 total