P-38 German Name

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oldcrowcv63 said:
I had the good fortune to meet Marty in unusual circumstances and came to know him fairly well. He was one of the most interesting characters I've ever met. I should add that while he was very interesting and a very likable drinking buddy (He'd put me under the table in short order) He was an unrepentant raconteur. He was happy to fictionalize and embellish any story he told whether true or not. Any thing he wrote as history has to be taken with more than a grain of salt. He was seriously afflicted with the Liberty Valance syndrome That is to say, "if a legend conflicted with the actual history, he preferred to print the legend or even better, create a new legend. My impression of him was that the story was the most important product to him, not its accuracy.
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In his book "Fork Tailed Devil" he also talks about a number of P-38s being scrapped and buried in Korea just prior to the start of the Korean War, then discusses their possible impact on the early part of the conflict had they been available. The AAF did scrap a number of P-38s in theater right after the war but there is no documented evidence AFAIK that there was a cadre of P-38s (F-38s) sitting in Korea prior to the start of the Korean War.
 
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syscom3 said:
Im using that phrase at my next staff meeting at work. Who says this website isnt educational in more ways than one.
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Sys, I could have called him disingenuous, a notorious prevaricator or just a bald faced liar but that would have been unfair to the man who had a life of rich experience (or so he said :rolleyes: ) and could spin a good yarn. However, in his case, truth is stranger than fiction. With a few beers, I could tell some true stories about him that no one would ever believe but are absolutely true. I am convinced he never died but was simply abducted by aliens who know he was about to blow the whistle on them… :shock:
 
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oldcrowcv63 said:
Sys, I could have called him disingenuous, a notorious prevaricator or just a bald faced liar but that would have been unfair to the man who had a life of rich experience (or so he said :rolleyes: ) and could spin a good yarn. However, in his case, truth is stranger than fiction. With a few beers, I could tell some true stories about him that no one would ever believe but are absolutely true. I am convinced he never died but was simply abducted by aliens who know he was about to blow the whistle on them… :shock:
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While meant to be a bit tongue in cheek, my last post seems a bit harsh and very unfair to Caidin who did have a wonderfully varied and most productive life. Among his accomplishments, he was the author of over 50 books on aerospace technology and he was especially adept at promoting aviation and space exploration to a younger audience.

Wikipedia has a fairly balanced account of his life at Martin Caidin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which includes some of the highs and lows as well as the rather bizarre.

As a teenager, his book Black Thursday introduced me to the Schweinfurt B-17 raid debacle in the most graphic terms. His early writing about missile technology spoke to me eloquently and almost certainly influenced my career choices. As a preteen, I had corresponded with him, describing a "problem" choosing a of career path. His insightful response advised me throughout my life. He said, "Young man, you have no problems only decisions to make."

RIP Marty. :salute:
 
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GregP said:
Until I spoke with this guy at the museum, I gave it little credence, too. Now, I'm not saying it was prevalent, but am wondering a bit. As I said above, I make no claims and am just passing it along for whatever it may be worth.

I have not "jumped onto the badwagon, so to speak, but have a curiosity that may never be answered. It isn't the first time.
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Even if he told you that, I'd take it with a grain of salt: it's been so deeply imbedded in the popular culture, he may have heard it many times, and now "remembers" it. Memory is a tricky, and not always reliable, thing.
 
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This is from Wiki (with references). The P-38s MTO combat debut and comments by LW pilots...

After 347 sorties with no enemy contact, the 1st, 14th and 82nd Fighter Groups were transferred to the 12th Air Force in North Africa as part of the force being built up for Operation Torch. On 19 November 1942, Lightnings escorted a group of B-17 Flying Fortress bombers on a raid over Tunis. On 5 April 1943, 26 P-38Fs of the 82nd claimed 31 enemy aircraft destroyed, helping to establish air superiority in the area, and earning it the German nickname "der Gabelschwanz Teufel" – the Fork-Tailed Devil.[51] The P-38 remained active in the Mediterranean for the rest of the war. It was in this theatre that the P-38 suffered its heaviest losses in the air. On 25 August 1943, 13 P-38s were shot down in a single sortie by Jagdgeschwader 53 Bf 109s without achieving a single kill.[55] On 2 September 10 P-38s were shot down, in return for a single kill, the 67-victory ace Franz Schiess (who was also the leading "Lightning" killer in the Luftwaffe with 17 destroyed).[55] Kurt Bühligen, third highest scoring German pilot on the Western front with 112 victories, recalled later: "The P-38 fighter (and the B-24) were easy to burn. Once in Africa we were six and met eight P-38s and shot down seven. One sees a great distance in Africa and our observers and flak people called in sightings and we could get altitude first and they were low and slow." [56] General der Jagdflieger Adolf Galland was unimpressed with the P-38, declaring, "it had similar shortcomings in combat to our Bf 110, our fighters were clearly superior to it."

The reference is made but again nothing to substantiate that the LW actually called it that, if anything this reference shows it wasn't highly regarded in the ETO at least by two high scoring LW pilots. What's also funny is the PS magazine issue was in September 1943, 5 months after inital P-38 successes and one month after the aircraft took a mauling.
 
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As said by others in this threas it was most likely not a Luftwaffe aircrew nickname, more likely origination is from ground troops suffering from strafe attacks.
 
Denniss said:
As said by others in this threas it was most likely not a Luftwaffe aircrew nickname, more likely origination is from ground troops suffering from strafe attacks.
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That a possibility considering by September 1943 German prisoners were possibly being taken in Africa and in the Med.
 
I could certainly see ground troops being a source of this.

I think this will be a thing that will never be proven ever, as there simply is just no proof to support either way.
 
There are a lot of things "everybody knows" that have no traceable origin; after following this thread for a while, it seems pretty likely that somebody started "Fork-tailed Devil" as a propaganda term, although this can never be certain.

I would guess that most nicknames of enemy aircraft, at least those used during hangar-flying by fighter pilots, are derogatory.
 
FLYBOYJ said:
This from Wiki (with references). "The P-38 fighter (and the B-24) were easy to burn. Once in Africa we were six and met eight P-38s and shot down seven. One sees a great distance in Africa and our observers and flak people called in sightings and we could get altitude first and they were low and slow." [56] General der Jagdflieger Adolf Galland was unimpressed with the P-38, declaring, "it had similar shortcomings in combat to our Bf 110, our fighters were clearly superior to it."
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J,

Two things struck me about this wiki source:

The large size of the P-38 had to have been a significant disadvantage given the fighter pilot (paraphrased) adage that 'seeing one's opponent first provides a huge advantage in A2AC' and may well have contributed to its early (persistent?) trouble vs LW fighters. However, comparing it to the Me 110 and describing the combats as occurring when the P-38 was "low and slow" suggests to me that the american fighter was either being misused or at least used in a manner that didn't play to its strengths. So it begs the question against the Bf-109, what relative strengths did the P-38 possess that offset the size disadvantage? It was nominally fast in all versions but I would think it had either none or insignificant speed advantage over the Bf-109. From what I understood it was also reputed to be an excellent high altitude fighter but once again how much real advantage did it possess vs the Bf-109? Using it for low altitude support when you have the P-40 and DB-7 in your stable seems to me to be a misuse of assets. I don't know much about the early airwar in the MTO (42-43) so maybe somebody can enlighten me here. I believe Doolittle came in to take over at some point, and I wouldn't expect him to have made too many tactical errors.
 
It took a while to get pilots trained to take advantage of the P-38's strengths; I suspect that as the war went on any given Luftwaffe pilot would find them increasingly difficult opponents.
 
Can't add anything new, except as above, I've always heard that that is what the Germans called the P-38 (Gabelschwanz-Teufel) and the Japanese, (Ni hikōki, ippairotto) 2 planes - one pilot. Tried doing so limited research and every lead goes back to Martin Caidin's book
 
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