P-38 German Name

[BiffF15]

"Bogies Ten O'Clock," end of story as far as RT...

In the heat of battle I don't think you could care less if it's a MiG-21, Su 27 or a wombat.

FlyboyJ,

There is a saying and it goes, "Bandits at your 6 are better than no bandits at all"... As for the points that you and GregP are making it's as my Weapons Officer always said, "It depends".

When communicating via the radio it's better to say the Flanker vice S U TwentySeven. Count the syllables. The former is 2, and the latter is 6. In a 4 v 4+ or greater, that is A LOT of radio time taken up. When maneuvering in the visual arena and going through the comm drill to keep SA high, not run into each other, and kill the bad guy extra syllables could block someone telling you to dispense counter measures or maneuver to survive.

Fighter displays are very crowed, information intensive screens. Su-27 takes less space than Flanker. Less letters / digits are better than more. This is also just the PG conversation. There are many layers to everything in aviation, and particualarly fighter aviation.

I've fought the German Mig-29s many years ago (best TDY's ever at Laage, GE and Key West, FL) and they called them Miggys. At the time they were probably the best Fulchrum drivers in the world. Their squadron decended from the Me-163 Komet, and they had breakfast together every morning in the squadron bar. The ceiling in the bar was hand carved wood of all the constellations, that supposedly was at a WW2 Luftwaffe base. When the wall went up it was on the wrong side, and when the wall came down the West Germans had it back with in days (seriously long memory). World class flying, drinking, story telling with world class folks!

Cheers,
Biff

 

[GregP]

I thought Bogeys were unidentified targets and once identified, you typically used the code word or whatever sqyuadron shourtcut was accepted.

So, "Bogeys at 12 O'clock" would be unidentified aircraft at 12 O'clock." The once you KNOW, you;d typically says Fulcrums at 12 O'clock" or wherever they are now.

Is that correct Biff?

 

[davparlr]

"Bogies Ten O'Clock," end of story as far as RT...

In the heat of battle I don't think you could care less if it's a MiG-21, Su 27 or a wombat.

Biff?

I suspect there is to much work on non-cooperative target identification features on sensors to claim it is not important, for instance, you may want to plan a different strategy when taking on a very aggressive wombat., or, a friendly with a malfunctioning IFF.

 

[BiffF15]

I thought Bogeys were unidentified targets and once identified, you typically used the code word or whatever sqyuadron shourtcut was accepted.

So, "Bogeys at 12 O'clock" would be unidentified aircraft at 12 O'clock." The once you KNOW, you;d typically says Fulcrums at 12 O'clock" or wherever they are now.

Is that correct Biff?

GregP,

You are correct! Did I type something to the contrary?

Cheers,
Biff

 

[GregP]

No, just clarifying.

 

[GrauGeist]

I don't know...encountering a wombat could mean some serious trouble

 

[FLYBOYJ]

When communicating via the radio it's better to say the Flanker vice S U TwentySeven. Count the syllables. The former is 2, and the latter is 6. In a 4 v 4+ or greater, that is A LOT of radio time taken up. When maneuvering in the visual arena and going through the comm drill to keep SA high, not run into each other, and kill the bad guy extra syllables could block someone telling you to dispense counter measures or maneuver to survive.

That's exactely what I was getting at Biff. Even when flying bug smashers around controlled air space, ATC doesn't want to hear long winded phraseology, even worse in combat for the reasons you mention.

Steve Ritchie made friends with the guys flying in the EC-121s over Vietnam, he describes an incident where a controller (who knew Ritchie's call sign) picked up two bogeys that were closing in quick on him. Trashing all the formal RT BS, I remember Ritchie saying the controller told Ritche something to the effect, "Steve, two merging." Ritchie said by the controller doing this, not only did it possibly save his life but he managed to shoot down one or two of the MiGs. I think this was covered on a History Channel show about Ritchie.

 

[GregP]

In an emergency, whatver is shortest is best in anybody's book.

 

[BiffF15]

Flyboy,

The first rule was say it in brevity code. The second rule was say in plain English if unable the first rule.

Here is a humorous point. Which do you think people will say correctly in a fight / under duress more often, their left / right or the clock position of the threat?

Answer: Left or right. If I heard "Bandit left three o'clock", I would go left and more often than not it was the correct move.

 

[at ease]

I have just found a document published in August 1944 written by Hal Hibbard, who actually uses the term "Fork-Tailed Devil" in the article which is a which is a very detailed design study and a must see if the P38 is of interest.

See page 27 of 50 reproduced below.

The acknowledgement of the article included in the document is given on page 50 of 50 - "Aviation" Vol43 #8.

"The present airplane(P38J) is an improvement upon the plane the enemy so aptly named the 'Fork-Tailed Devil.'"

http://legendsintheirowntime.com/P38/P38_redo.pdf

Maybe, Mr. Caidin is owed an apology?

 

[vikingBerserker]

Hmmm, I wonder if that is an American creation (for "propaganda") and not the Germans. Regardless, very interesting. At least we know the term was being used in 1944.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Maybe, Mr. Caidin is owed an apology?

Don't think so - No LW pilots ever called the P-38 that and many of them had little respect for the aircraft as well documented in this thread and in many interviews and books - additionally his little story about the YB-40 and the captured P-38 questions his credibility on anything that can't be historically verified IMO.

It seems this was more a propaganda name driven by people stateside then anything else. I'm sure in 1944 there were hordes of captured LW pilots expressing fear and anxiety over fighting the "Forked Tailed Devil" and was the first points brought out during interrogation!

 

[at ease]

Don't think so - No LW pilots ever called the P-38 that and many of them had little respect for the aircraft as well documented in this thread and in many interviews and books - additionally his little story about the YB-40 and the captured P-38 questions his credibility on anything that can't be historically verified IMO.

It seems this was more a propaganda name driven by people stateside then anything else. I'm sure in 1944 there were hordes of captured LW pilots expressing fear and anxiety over fighting the "Forked Tailed Devil" and was the first points brought out during interrogation!

Well, Hal Hibbard's quote certainly takes the torch away from Martin Caidin as being the originator of the term.

The P38 made it's MTO debut in November 42 as everyone would know, so there is not much time between then and when Hibbard penned his words which could actually have been anywhere between mid '43 and when the posted article was published(August '44).

There's not much time for such a moniker to develop in English, let alone German, unless it was actually uttered by a German.

Reading the document gives me the impression that Hibbard was an "engineer"(which he of course was) with a character to match, and not given to "hyperbole", or embellishment, so I don't expect him to have made it up.

And, didn't the first post in this thread describe an elderly German and his wife being familiar with the German term?

 

[tomo pauk]

Methinks that problem is two-fold. The supposedly-German nickname for the P-38 is probably a fruit of war-time moral/propaganda talk, aimed for the soldiers and civilians alike. So we arrive at names like 'whistling death', 'whispering death', or indeed at 'fork-tailed devil'. War-time printings can be excused for dong so, it was war going on, after all, and some skewing of the facts happened in all countries.
Where M. Caidin made a mistake, IMO, is that he copied in verbatim the supposed nickname, before he cross-checked that with German sources. It was them, after all, that 'invented' the name, right? He was not the only author of such mistakes, even today we can read how BF-109G was good for 620 km/h, or that Jumo-210G have had two stage supercharger (yep, prior ww2), that V-1710 didn't featured one, that P-39 was a great tank buster etc.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Well, Hal Hibbard's quote certainly takes the torch away from Martin Caidin as being the originator of the term.

The P38 made it's MTO debut in November 42 as everyone would know, so there is not much time between then and when Hibbard penned his words which could actually have been anywhere between mid '43 and when the posted article was published(August '44).

There's not much time for such a moniker to develop in English, let alone German, unless it was actually uttered by a German.

Reading the document gives me the impression that Hibbard was an "engineer"(which he of course was) with a character to match, and not given to "hyperbole", or embellishment, so I don't expect him to have made it up.

Hal Hibbard was the Director of Engineering at Lockheed and was also featured in many wartime propaganda clips - BTW Lockheed was right up the street from a number of film studios. There is no evidence that any LW personnel ever used to the term despite the usage in Lockheed publications. Ray Tolliver mentions the P-38 as an easy target as early as the 1960s (when he first interviewed many of the LW top aces) in his book Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffle.

I have no ill will towards the P-38- I worked for Lockheed at the old Burbank facility for over 10 years (and worked with people who knew Hibbard) and it's one of my favorite aircraft, but it seems there was no great fear of this aircraft by LW pilots and the name is more of a propaganda myth than anything else.

 

[at ease]

Well, the OP did say:

We think it was a fabrication of Martin Caidin in an early book from the 1960's.

At least we know now that he did not invent the term.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have just found a document published in August 1944 written by Hal Hibbard, who actually uses the term "Fork-Tailed Devil" in the article which is a which is a very detailed design study and a must see if the P38 is of interest.

See page 27 of 50 reproduced below.

The acknowledgement of the article included in the document is given on page 50 of 50 - "Aviation" Vol43 #8.



http://legendsintheirowntime.com/P38/P38_redo.pdf

Maybe, Mr. Caidin is owed an apology?


View attachment 254757

There still is no evidence of Luftwaffe Pilots calling it that.

That is someone outside claiming it.

 

[at ease]

Other than possibly what the OP said in post #1.

Not conclusive, but possible.

The article I posted was not a classified document as far as I can tell.

Maybe a copy was obtained and forwarded to Reichlin, and the term may have been "bandied about", even derisively, by Luftwaffe pilots to the point where it became not so uncommon.

Just sayin'

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Don't think so - No LW pilots ever called the P-38 that and many of them had little respect for the aircraft as well documented in this thread and in many interviews and books - additionally his little story about the YB-40 and the captured P-38 questions his credibility on anything that can't be historically verified IMO.

It seems this was more a propaganda name driven by people stateside then anything else. I'm sure in 1944 there were hordes of captured LW pilots expressing fear and anxiety over fighting the "Forked Tailed Devil" and was the first points brought out during interrogation!

I had the good fortune to meet Marty in unusual circumstances and came to know him fairly well. He was one of the most interesting characters I've ever met. I should add that while he was very interesting and a very likable drinking buddy (He'd put me under the table in short order) He was an unrepentant raconteur. He was happy to fictionalize and embellish any story he told whether true or not. Any thing he wrote as history has to be taken with more than a grain of salt. He was seriously afflicted with the Liberty Valance syndrome That is to say, "if a legend conflicted with the actual history, he preferred to print the legend or even better, create a new legend. My impression of him was that the story was the most important product to him, not its accuracy.

 

[m37b1]

When I lived in Germany, 83-85, I took every opportunity to talk with WWII veterans. Since I was a Tanker in the US Army at the time, I had some great conversations with some of the men who crewed on Mk IV's and Panthers and one guy that TC'd a Tiger 1.

Being an WWII aviation nut, I also enjoyed speaking with retired LW pilots. One in particular was very interesting. He had flown Me-109s in Africa. Shot down 3 P-40s, 3 Spitfires and 6 Hurricanes as well as some twin engined bombers that he guessed were Hudsons. He claimed the P-40 was dangerous in a vertical fight, and the Spit in the horizontal. Had no comment on the Hurricane. When I asked him about the P-38, he replied the he hated that plane, was never able to catch one, too fast, would just run away from his 109. Never refereed to it as Fork Tailed Devil, however. I have his name written down somewhere, if I can find it I'll post it here.