P-38 or Mosquito?

[Andrew]

There are photgraphs in Chaz Bower's book "The Mosquito at War" that show a Mosquito that came back from a mission with half the starboard Wing Missing, the Port Engine very badly damaged and half the Tailplane missing and it still made it back to the Airfield, also there are records of a Mosquito that ended up with a chimney pot in the cockpit, also there was another Mosquito which returned froma Mission with several hundred feet of telegraph wire wraped round it. And the Mosquito as far as I know is the only Aircraft to have a loss rate of less than 1 Aircraft a mission.

There were 2 types of Rockets that the Allied Aircraft used during the war, these were 25lbs and 60lbs warheads, the 25lb Warhead Rockets were originally designed for Tank busting, and the 60lb Warhead Rockets were desinged for Ship and Submerine Busting, strange as it may seem the Rockets performed better when their roles were reveresed, the 25lb Rockets were used for Submerine Busting, and the 60lb Rockets were used for Tank Busting, both The Mossie and the P38 were capable of carrying 8 Rockets, 4 on each wing using the Standard wing mounted pods.

 

[plan_D]

The Mosquito would have also been the better bomber destroyer, simply because of its more powerful armament.

 

[Lightning Guy]

Ok, were to begin. First of all, I had never seen anything on the durability of the Mossie and that is very impressive. Secondly, the P-38L carried 10 rockets on 1 "inverted Christmas tree" launchers. They were tested with as many as 14 zero-length launchers (like on the P-47 or P-51) but the structural changes involved were too great. Plus the Christmas tree launcher could be removed when not needed producing a cleaner plane. Thirdly, the Lightning's armament was more concentrated than even the Mossie and I think it's high rate of climb and high altitude performance would have given it the edge in interception missions.

 

[plan_D]

The rate of climb and ceiling on the Mosquito were good enough to reach the bombers in time, and its 4 20mm cannons were very close together and packed a harder punch than the Lightnings armament.

 

[Lightning Guy]

They were packed tightly, but not as closely as the Lightning's guns. Question: how much ammo did the Mossie carry for it's cannons?

 

[plan_D]

I don't actually know, but the ammo count will be lower than the P-38s. I know where you are going with this, I've used it countless times before. The thing is, the Mosquito would have less ammo, but a harder punch, therefore it doesn't have to use as much ammo to bring a plane down.
The P-38s guns were tightly packed, even more so than the Mosquitos but the Mosquito has more powerful armament, which more than makes up for it.

 

[Lightning Guy]

But you do have the problem of endurance. Not because of fuel because both planes had exceptional range (certaintly better than the Hurricanes or the Spits from the BoB). But the Lightning had 40 secs worth of firepower. And if the enemy bomber formation is escorted I would much rather be in a P-38.

 

[Huckebein]

What are we talking about here, a few inches difference in gun grouping? the Mosquito carried out every task asked of it exceptionally well. (Take a look at the old Mossie Vs Ju-88 thread for the full list). The Lightning was a good fighter, but only in the Pacific where Japanese fighters couldn't keep up with it. In Europe, the Mosquito was more effective as a day fighter when used on Ranger intruder sorties over enemy airfields. The Lightning was generally out of its depth against German fighters, especially if they encountered them in any significant numbers.
Also, the Mossie could be, and was, used as a high-speed VIP transport and carrier-borne Anti-shipping strike aircraft (the High-ball version).
As for intercepting, they are very closely matched - having 40 seconds worth of ammo is no use if it takes 10 seconds to bring one down (exaggerated I know, but you know what I mean), so I wouldn't be surprised if both aircraft carried the same 'bombers-worth' of ammunition in their guns.
Oh, and don't knock the Mosquito's
durability - it came back with all sorts of $hit£ done to it.

All in all, I go for the Mosquito - the two are only closely matched in the fighter role. In every other role the Mossie wins (IMHO).

 

[Lightning Guy]

You obviously have read what the Germans thought about the P-38. Several German ACES admitted that a P-38 could turn inside a 109 or 190 and could outrun both. The P-38 got a bad wrap in Europe because of the situations it was exposed to. It must be remembered that the P-38s on bomber escort were often out numbered by as much as 10 to 1, handcuffed by orders to stick to the bombers, and yet they still gave better than they got. When it comes to dogfighting, I would much rather be in a P-38 than a Mossie. As an example of what the P-38s could do, on July 7th, 1944, the 20th and 55th FGs were flying escort when they were jumped by 109s, 190s, and Me-410s. By the end of the day the score was P-38s 21 Germans 1.

 

[plan_D]

In the tactics of the RAF the Spitfires would have sorted the 109s and the Mosquito would have sorted the bombers. Even then the Mosquito could handle itself perfectly well in a dogfight.

There's plenty of examples of aircraft performing brilliantly on days. The P-38s might have out-numbered the German planes. Anyway, I've heard plenty like that, like one day in 1943 (I can't remember the exact date) the Fw-190s clocked up 32 kills to 2 losses. Then again the Fw-190 was a great plane.

In my opinion I still think that the Mosquito would be a better Bomber interceptor.

 

[cheddar cheese]

Several German ACES admitted that a P-38 could turn inside a 109 or 190 and could outrun both.

thankyou, i keep telling the lanc that the p-38 was a manoeverable plane but he doesnt believe me

 

[Lightning Guy]

German Aces admitted it, and I've read more than one account of P-38s turning inside Ki-43 Oscars to achieve kills.

 

[cheddar cheese]

ive read accounts of p-38 pilots saying how amazingly manoeverablr they were for a plane of that size but he still wouldnt believe me, he just cant hack that hes wrong

 

[Erich]

Lighting just clear things up a bit. the 7-7-44 mission in which Fw 190's of IV.Sturm/JG 3 and II.Sturm/JG 3 protected by Bf 109G-6's of I./JG 300 were given the mission on their first Gefechstverband to attack the US bombers en-masse of the 8th AF over Oschersleben and the 15th AF to the south. the German tactic was to attack the US bombers at whatever cost and to avoid the US P-38's or any other Allied escorts. this was in reality for pure propaganda reasons only as only the 55 claimed kills were recorded in the German news as a great victory and noth the German losses. i have perosnally over 25 pages of documentation on this air battle and some of it resides on my web-site that is undergoing some radical changes...............

if interested just type in Sturmgruppen in your search engine(s), and look for Sturmgruppen missions 1944 run by Neil Page and myself. U guys may want to take note of over 10 pages of materials listed on the search as the site has three seperate site facings..........

the P-38 was an excellent craft but it appears that the Fw 190 pilots if aggressive could tackle the Lighting without problem. I have some real ugly gun-cam footage of P-38's being torn to ribbons under the 2cm and 3cm M shells

for now

Erich

 

[Lightning Guy]

I've seen lots of footage of 190s going down to Lightnings as well. The fact is, that the Lightning, outnumbered and hampered by poor tactics at the time, more than held it's own against both the 190 and the 109.

 

[Erich]

in what year are we talking about ? 43, 44 or 45 ? I know full well what the P-38 could do as the 1st fighter group was quite fond of it.......

E

 

[Lightning Guy]

Well, '43 saw most of the P-38 groups (fighting the Germans that is) in the Med. where the P-38 was THE fighter plane. For much of '44, the P-38 was the only Allied fighter capable of providing escort over the target area. By '45, the Lightning was on it's way out of the 8th (for economical reasons mostly) but that freed them up to chew up the Wermacht with the 9th AF or to transfer to the PTO where they decimated the Japanese.

 

[Erich]

yes I will agree with your assesment. Truly in 1943 the P-38 was the top notch bird by day to contend with especially in the Med.

E ~

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

it doesn't matter really how close the guns were, they were all in the nose so they have to be pretty close anyway, if your intercepting, you've got a big target so it doesn't matter...............

 

[Erich]

heres a pic from friend and pilot G. Hezmahalch flying his P-38 recon version in early 1945.............