FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Yes, more than once
P-38 or Mosquito?
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AHH quite correct
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Don't need nor want your "sympathies".
You posted a bullshit statement and were called on it...the irony is that you suggested google to others and yet don't seem to know how to use it.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
wuzak
Captain
P.13/36 was a specification that required an 8,000lb bomb load, catapult launch at AUW, defensive guns and the carriage of two 18 inch torpedoes.
The Mosquito was designed, not to any specification, as a light unarmed bomber with a maximum bomb load of 1,000lb.
The Mosquito was eventually launched with catapult (from a carrier), its bomb load was increased to 2,000lb using short fin 500lb MC bombs, then to 3,000lb with the introduction of the strengthened wing, which allowed wing bombs, then to 4,000lb with the bulged bomb bay and, finally, to 5,000lb with the B.XVI.
One part of the P.13/36 specification the Mosquito could never achieve was the carriage of two 18 inch torpedoes. They were large in diameter and long.
Only the Manchester and Lancaster were able to meet that criteria, not that they ever used those weapons.
sorry it took me so long to respond.
quote "The Germans had nothing equal to the Mosquito and it sapped their morale. Its fighter pilots were allowed to claim two "kills" for each one they were able to shoot down. "
Is the Mosquito the greatest warplane of all?
I thought that the issue with P/R Mosquitos and the individual night bomber variant wasn't its ultimate performance but its cruising speed. Assuming still air, if a plane is cruising at 25,000 ft and circa 250 to 300MPH its ground speed is higher than the ground speed of any plane of the era, so interception is pot luck or the equivalent of standing patrols using many aircraft to find one. The massive internal fuel load didn't increase top speed but did increase cruising speed, to the point it was governed by engine reliability issues not range.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
And an article written by a journalist who didn't do his homework either.
From an earlier post:
The Luftwaffe scoring system was rational and realistic. "One pilot - one victory" was the straightforward scoring rule. If more then one pilot claimed a kill they had to settle who would get it, if in the end they still remained undecided, the kill was awarded to the Staffel.Without a witness, a Luftwaffe pilot had no chance of victory confirmation. Such a claim, even if filed, would not pass beyond his Gruppenkommandeur.
The final destruction or explosion of an enemy aircraft in the air, or the bail-out of the pilot, had to be observed either on gun-camera film, or at least one other human witness. This witness could be the pilot's wingman, squadron mate, or a ground observer of the encounter. there was no possibility, as with some RAF and USAAF pilots, of having a victory credited because the claiming officer was a man of his word. The Luftwaffe rule was simple "no witness - no victory credit." This rule applied universally in the Luftwaffe, no matter what the pilot's rank or status.
This made the Luftwaffe claim procedure possibly the most rigid and trustworthy of all World War Two combatants (as always mistakes have been made, but nothing points out that this was deliberate or significantly higher then on the Allied side).
The Luftwaffe system was impartial, inflexible and far less error-prone than British or American procedures. Luftwaffe fighter pilots sometimes had to wait more then a year for victory confirmation to reach them from the Luftwaffe High Command.The Germans differed radically from the Allies with the Luftwaffe's introduction of a complicated "points" system, instituted to bring a modicum of uniformity into the bestowal of higher decorations.
In effect only on the Western Front:
Aircraft TypeAbschuss
DestroyedHerrausschuss
SeparationEntgültige Vernichtung
Final DestructionSingle-engined100Twin-engined bomber211/2Four-engined bomber321
DestroyedHerrausschuss
SeparationEntgültige Vernichtung
Final DestructionSingle-engined100Twin-engined bomber211/2Four-engined bomber321
The German set a great store by the ability of a fighter pilot to separate individual Allied bombers from the box formations in which they flew. Thus, a Luftwaffe pilot could not win points for damaging an Allied bomber unless he separated it from the box. The system recognized the fact that achieving a Herrausschuss of a bomber was a more difficult task then the final destruction of a damaged straggler.
The point system had nothing to do with the total number of victories (and claims), only with awarding decorations and promotions through proven ability and worth. Many people think the Luftwaffe awarded multiple kills for multi-engined aircraft and even for damaging them, this is totally false!
Decorations were awarded after the following point totals had been reached
AwardPointsIron Cross 2nd Cl.1Iron Cross 1st Cl.3Honor Cup10German Cross in Gold20Knight's Cross40
This point-decoration system was used only on the Western Front, because the Germans believed it was easier to shoot down Soviet fighters and bombers than to down Western-flown aircraft.
The Knight's Cross, which was worn on a ribbon around the neck, even in combat, was recognized in the Jagdwaffe as a sign of a true Experte. Glory-hungry pilots were said to have a "neck rash", "itching neck" or "sore throat", it was a common desease in the Luftwaffe, sometimes even a fatal one - although not always to the one contaminated - which only the coveted award could cure (quite similar to the Pour Le Mérite, or more commonly known as the Blue Max, in the Great War of 1914-18).
The Luftwaffe pilots, and Wehrmacht personal in general, wore all their all their decorations in combat unlike their RAF and USAAC/F adversaries.
The Knight's Cross to the Iron Cross was not the highest order, there were several higher orders created during the war which were basically additions to the Knight's Cross.
- Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves
- Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords
- Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds
Decorations were awarded on the Eastern Front after the following kill totals had been reached (1943/44)
AwardKills Iron Cross 2nd Cl.2-3Iron Cross 1st Cl.8German Cross in Gold30Knight's Cross45-50Oak Leaves to the Knight's Cross100-120 Swords to the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves200Diamonds to the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords 250
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Glider
Captain
Totally agree. Re the lack of two 18in torpedo's, they did carry two anti shipping bouncing bombs which is some sort of compensation. I know they just missed operational use but it was close
No idea if the L/W pilots were allowed to claim two victories or not but the success of the Mosquito night fighter version was entirely reliant on the RADAR it carried. Of course you need a high performance aircraft with a spare crew member but it is actually the electronic war that is under discussion.
Crimea_River
Marshal
not sure but i was under the impression that speed altitude and maneuverability especially early in its introduction was the reasoning. this would be before the night fighter variants i suspect
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
And it was not true - the Germans had a very specific system of not only confirming kills but awarding credits (as posted) The Mosquito was a great aircraft but it was not indestructible, I believe something like 900 were lost in combat
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Sorry, but that's simply not true.
They NEVER earned multiple victories, it was not allowed.
The points system from 1944 onward toward earning the Knight's Cross has been confused with victory awards and this is most likely the case.
4-engined aircraft = 3 points
2-engined aircraft = 2 points
1-engined aircraft = 1 point
And the point system has nothing to do with the Mosquito, it was put in place at a time when Germany was being bombed day and night by Allied bombers and the Luftwaffe was trying to boost victories with an incentive.
I never take anything for fact that comes from newspapers and case in point, not too long ago the Daily Mail had an article about the Battle of Britain. A picture in that article showed a flight of Hurricanes and the photo's caption referred to them as Hurricane Jet Fighters...
What is that reasoning, the Mosquito famously shut down a Goering radio broadcast on a daylight raid in Jan 1943, the first raid was a success the second raid wasnt so much and one aircraft from three was lost. Defence is based on protecting a target, until a raid was made on a radio centre the "haus des Rundfunks" wasn't considered a target.
There was a period in the nightfighter war when the Mosquito pilots were deliberately shooting down L/W night fighters close to their home airfield as part of a psychological war between crews. I could imagine the people involved valuing a victory over a night fighter more than that of a bomber, I havnt seen any evidence that it was made part of the award system.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Agree. I think because of this combined with the Luftwaffe credit system created a myth that 2 kill credits were given to certain aircraft
It was an intensely personal conflict, there may have been thousands of four engine night bombers involved but there were a comparative few night fighters who were both hunters and hunted in the dark. Pilot navigator skill played a part but most of it was the electronic war.
there is no tongue in cheek nor smart ass in my comments. at the beginning of the cold war and with the soviets publicly declaring that they wished to have influence in south america and america publicly stating that they would not let that happen. to that end America encouraged or forced some south american countries to build up or create an air force. in the case of argentina with the help of some Nazis as well. the fact is that and in context of this thread, the fact that a south american country had surplus american aircraft is not a merit of that particular airframe but is a result of the politics of the day.
even in more recent times. the sale and licence build F18? deal with indonesia was canceled by Clinton over E Timor and then australia was given a couple of squadrons of F111 like really cheap ( read free) who then flicked there Skyhawks to New Zealand Like really cheap. Or when australia pulled out of the F35 development because of cost overruns. the US cut off supplies/parts for the f111 until they relented. they also had to purchase the indonesian f18s
Or new Zealand having to burn there Corsairs in japan, which was Ok since they were LL. but then having america spit the dummy over still flying P51s which were purchased, all because New Zealand purchased Vampires and Not F16s. the the interference in New Zealand's attempts to sell the skyhawks and then there refusal to buy F18s at a pumped up price.
My point is as with all arms sales there is a political component, and this component is usually the larger wich in an exaggerated way, you get the american attaboy or big stick, vers soviet oh god we let them in the door. or the french bleeding you of parts or the british who are just to expensive anyway. aircraft sales are Not based on the attributes or even suitability of that airframe to the requirements of that country. think Mig25 in Iraq or Lightings in Saudi Arabia
Shortround6
Major General
There are people here who are more familiar with the Mosquito than I am but the common thread is that the use of the Mosquito as a bomber is often misunderstood.
Only about 1/4 of the Mosquitoes built were bombers (1,690?) and only 18 bomber squadrons ever used Mosquito bombers out of 78 squadrons that flew Mosquitoes.
Please note I am not making any claims either for or against the Mosquito as a bomber, only putting the numbers involved in some sort of context.
The context also covers the timeline.
No 105 Squadron was the first bomber squadron to get the Mosquito (and was the first squadron to get any sort of Mosquito) and that was in Nov of 1941. However, like many new planes, it took a considerable period before the the Mosquito was used on operations, which for the Mosquito was the Morning of May 31st when 4 aircraft from No 105 squadron did a high level raid on Cologne after the 1000 bomber raid the night before. No 105 Squadron was the ONLY Mosquito bomber squadron for 9 months. No 109 Squadron was equipped with Mosquitos in Aug of 1942 but No 109 squadron was NOT a "line" squadron. It was more of a proving ground for radar and electronic equipment. The 3rd squadron to use the Mosquito bomber was No 139 Squadron which converted to the Mosquito in Oct of 1942 although a few operations had been flown the month before with aircraft "borrowed" from No 105 squadron. No 105 and No 139 were the ONLY active Mosquito bomber squadrons doing daylight attacks in late 1942 and early 1943 and in June/July (?) of 1943 they were transferred to pathfinder duties with No 8 Pathfinder group. Most later daylight attacks were carried out by Mosquito fighter-bombers.
The Mosquito MK XVI was the main bomber variant with at least 429 built but it used a pressure cabin and Merlin 72/73 engines (or later). The First MK XVI flew in Jan of 1944.
Any and all claims that the British/Canadians/Americans/Guatemalans should have scrapped all their Halifaxis/Lancasters/B-17s/B-24s and Waco bi-planes and used Mosquitos should be looked at with that timeline in mind and the numbers of actual raids and tons of bombs dropped. Also please note that the first use of the 4000lb cookie was Feb 23rd of 1944 which was right in the middle of "Big Week" by the 8th Air Force.
Mosquitos would post an enviable record during 1944 and 1945 with truly remarkable results but without a time machine there was no way for this record to affect procurement planning (aircraft orders) in 1942 and most of 1943.
Only about 1/4 of the Mosquitoes built were bombers (1,690?) and only 18 bomber squadrons ever used Mosquito bombers out of 78 squadrons that flew Mosquitoes.
Please note I am not making any claims either for or against the Mosquito as a bomber, only putting the numbers involved in some sort of context.
The context also covers the timeline.
No 105 Squadron was the first bomber squadron to get the Mosquito (and was the first squadron to get any sort of Mosquito) and that was in Nov of 1941. However, like many new planes, it took a considerable period before the the Mosquito was used on operations, which for the Mosquito was the Morning of May 31st when 4 aircraft from No 105 squadron did a high level raid on Cologne after the 1000 bomber raid the night before. No 105 Squadron was the ONLY Mosquito bomber squadron for 9 months. No 109 Squadron was equipped with Mosquitos in Aug of 1942 but No 109 squadron was NOT a "line" squadron. It was more of a proving ground for radar and electronic equipment. The 3rd squadron to use the Mosquito bomber was No 139 Squadron which converted to the Mosquito in Oct of 1942 although a few operations had been flown the month before with aircraft "borrowed" from No 105 squadron. No 105 and No 139 were the ONLY active Mosquito bomber squadrons doing daylight attacks in late 1942 and early 1943 and in June/July (?) of 1943 they were transferred to pathfinder duties with No 8 Pathfinder group. Most later daylight attacks were carried out by Mosquito fighter-bombers.
The Mosquito MK XVI was the main bomber variant with at least 429 built but it used a pressure cabin and Merlin 72/73 engines (or later). The First MK XVI flew in Jan of 1944.
Any and all claims that the British/Canadians/Americans/Guatemalans should have scrapped all their Halifaxis/Lancasters/B-17s/B-24s and Waco bi-planes and used Mosquitos should be looked at with that timeline in mind and the numbers of actual raids and tons of bombs dropped. Also please note that the first use of the 4000lb cookie was Feb 23rd of 1944 which was right in the middle of "Big Week" by the 8th Air Force.
Mosquitos would post an enviable record during 1944 and 1945 with truly remarkable results but without a time machine there was no way for this record to affect procurement planning (aircraft orders) in 1942 and most of 1943.
