P-38 or Mosquito?

[FLYBOYJ]

there is no tongue in cheek nor smart ass in my comments. at the beginning of the cold war and with the soviets publicly declaring that they wished to have influence in south america and america publicly stating that they would not let that happen. to that end America encouraged or forced some south american countries to build up or create an air force. in the case of argentina with the help of some Nazis as well. the fact is that and in context of this thread, the fact that a south american country had surplus american aircraft is not a merit of that particular airframe but is a result of the politics of the day.
even in more recent times. the sale and licence build F18? deal with indonesia was canceled by Clinton over E Timor and then australia was given a couple of squadrons of F111 like really cheap ( read free) who then flicked there Skyhawks to New Zealand Like really cheap. Or when australia pulled out of the F35 development because of cost overruns. the US cut off supplies/parts for the f111 until they relented. they also had to purchase the indonesian f18s
Or new Zealand having to burn there Corsairs in japan, which was Ok since they were LL. but then having america spit the dummy over still flying P51s which were purchased, all because New Zealand purchased Vampires and Not F16s. the the interference in New Zealand's attempts to sell the skyhawks and then there refusal to buy F18s at a pumped up price.

My point is as with all arms sales there is a political component, and this component is usually the larger wich in an exaggerated way, you get the american attaboy or big stick, vers soviet oh god we let them in the door. or the french bleeding you of parts or the british who are just to expensive anyway. aircraft sales are Not based on the attributes or even suitability of that airframe to the requirements of that country. think Mig25 in Iraq or Lightings in Saudi Arabia

Bla, bla, bla - this has NOTHING to do with this thread. You need to read this forum's rules, stop the political BS

 

[Clean32]

Mosquitos would post an enviable record during 1944 and 1945 with truly remarkable results but without a time machine there was no way for this record to affect procurement planning (aircraft orders) in 1942 and most of 1943.

enlightening, so based on your post and in context of this thread the mossie actually had a short war of just 2 years plus asia. at a time when when the Luftwaffe was not at its best? where the p38 was taking on a stronger/ capable Luftwaffe 2 years earlier?? would that be correct??

 

[GrauGeist]

Still trying to figure out how New Zealand was punished for buying Vampires instead of F-16s.
The Vampire was retired from RNZAF service long over a decade before the F-16 was even thought of...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Still trying to figure out how New Zealand was punished for buying Vampires instead of F-16s.
The Vampire was retired from RNZAF service long over a decade before the F-16 was even thought of...

Yup!!!!!

 

[Clean32]

Still trying to figure out how New Zealand was punished for buying Vampires instead of F-16s.
The Vampire was retired from RNZAF service long over a decade before the F-16 was even thought of...

ops sorry F86 typo

 

[Crimea_River]

Not your first either.

 

[Clean32]

Not your first either.

and probably not my last eather

 

[GrauGeist]

ops sorry F86 typo

Hell of a typo, especially when the RNZAF never had the F-86 in it's inventory.

Their first jet was the Gloster Meteor and from there, all their jets were British (vampire, venom, Canberra, etc.) until the A-4, which was purchased in 1970.

 

[Clean32]

Hell of a typo, especially when the RNZAF never had the F-86 in it's inventory.

.

easy typo just swap an 8 for a 1, as i demonstrated

 

[Shortround6]

there is no tongue in cheek nor smart ass in my comments. at the beginning of the cold war and with the soviets publicly declaring that they wished to have influence in south america and america publicly stating that they would not let that happen. to that end America encouraged or forced some south american countries to build up or create an air force. in the case of argentina with the help of some Nazis as well...................think Mig25 in Iraq or Lightings in Saudi Arabia

There may be something to what you say but the "sale" of surplus aircraft to South America may not have been as nefarious as you think, despite some of the shenanigans done by later arms deals.
The US either gave the planes away or charged a nominal fee, it is hard to "sell" aircraft to South American nations at very high prices when US citizens could by surplus aircraft for less than the price of the gas in the tanks.
The P-47 was used by 10 or 11 Central/South American nations. Now some of these nations had been trying build up some sort of Air Force for years. Claiming the US "forced" them may take a bit of proof.

5th Brazilian aviation regiment in 1932

from Wiki
"By 1938–39 Argentina's air power had about 3,200 staff (including about 200 officers), and maintained about 230 aircraft " there was a scheme to build fixed landing gear hawk 75s in Argentina.

we also have, again from Wiki, on the Gran Chaco war

"The Chaco War is also important historically as the first instance of large-scale aerial warfare to take place in the Americas. Both sides used obsolete single-engined biplane fighter-bombers; the Paraguayans deployed 14 Potez 25s, while the Bolivians made extensive use of at least 20 CW-14 Ospreys. Despite an international arms embargo imposed by the League of Nations, Bolivia in particular went to great lengths in trying to import a small number of Curtiss T-32 Condor II twin-engined bombers disguised as civil transport planes, but they were stopped in Peru before they could be delivered."

While many central/South American nations did not have large Air Forces they did have them and in some cases they could be traced back to before 1920.

Which Nations did the US force to create Air Forces?

 

[michael rauls]

I think the pummeling of the Lightning by some as a poor design because of the trouble the early( pre L/J25) had in the ETO in late 43/ early 44 is a bit unfair.
For one there are other reasons beside any limitations in the design for this, inexplicable verry limited training for multi engine aircraft for the p38 pilots that seems to be largely unique to the theater for one. The conditions of the ETO another. Verry few aircraft are ideal for all missions in all theaters. To me that an aircraft preformed great in all theaters except one where it did only OK does not sound like an indictment.
Lastly to call the p38 a failure in the ETO as I have read in a few posts here not to mention articles on the internet over the years is a bit much. They certainly had their issues, some due to design limitations and some to factors that had nothing to do with the plane itself but the later(J25/L) versions racked up about a 4 to 1 kill ratio at least if the 474th is any representation. Even if you want to lop this in half for overclaiming, considering their usual mission profile in mid 44 to VE day( ground attack ladden with ordinance on the way in) still ain't bad. Certainly not a "failure"

 

[Shortround6]

enlightening, so based on your post and in context of this thread the mossie actually had a short war of just 2 years plus asia. at a time when when the Luftwaffe was not at its best? where the p38 was taking on a stronger/ capable Luftwaffe 2 years earlier?? would that be correct??

Do NOT put words in my mouth or claim I said things I did not. If that is what you got from my post it is no wonder you are at odds with a number of people.

My post had to do with the Mosquito as a bomber and bomber only. It also was in relation to claims by some people that somebody should have changed some air force or other to use much larger numbers of Mosquitos than used historically because it was so much better than (or got better results ) than other bombers.

I said nothing about it's use as a fighter bomber or maritime strike aircraft and I said nothing about it's use as a night fighter, either defending British air space or intruding into German air (or other axis power) air space.

I also made no mention of the P-38 what so ever.

 

[Clean32]

There may be something to what you say but the "sale" of surplus aircraft to South America may not have been as nefarious as you think, despite some of the shenanigans done by later arms deals.
The US either gave the planes away or charged a nominal fee, it is hard to "sell" aircraft to South American nations at very high prices when US citizens could by surplus aircraft for less than the price of the gas in the tanks.

i think you have missed my point or i have not been clear in my point.
in context of this thread the fact that a few south american countries operated P39s is not a result of the benefits of that particular airframe.

but you are quite correct above about the cost of aircraft post ww2, but they still needed and export cert to leave the US and that required government approval.

and if you think about it and in the light of the start of the cold war it was a smart move, you get benefit and influence and possibility your boots on there ground for as you said the price of a tank of fuel

maybe it was better if i wrote create a modern air force

 

[FLYBOYJ]

"Or when australia pulled out of the F35 development because of cost overruns. the US cut off supplies/parts for the f111 until they relented."

OMG, Did this happen before or after the F-111 was retired?

 

[Clean32]

Do NOT put words in my mouth or claim I said things I did not. If that is what you got from my post it is no wonder you are at odds with a number of people.

My post had to do with the Mosquito as a bomber and bomber only. It also was in relation to claims by some people that somebody should have changed some air force or other to use much larger numbers of Mosquitos than used historically because it was so much better than (or got better results ) than other bombers.

I said nothing about it's use as a fighter bomber or maritime strike aircraft and I said nothing about it's use as a night fighter, either defending British air space or intruding into German air (or other axis power) air space.

I also made no mention of the P-38 what so ever.

sorry i had no intention of putting words in your mouth. i was just relating the dates you provided or applying the dates sorry if i offended you that was not my intent. i thought you post was informative

 

[Shortround6]

Lastly to call the p38 a failure in the ETO as I have read in a few posts here not to mention articles on the internet over the years is a bit much. They certainly had their issues, some due to design limitations and some to factors that had nothing to do with the plane itself but the later(J25/L) versions racked up about a 4 to 1 kill ratio at least if the 474th is any representation.

The P-38 went into service in the ETO 1-2 months before the P-51 and it was with one fighter group (7 fighter groups were equipped with the P-47?) The P-38 was already in service in every other theater so demand was high while production was lower than the P-47 and P-51 from Dec of 1943 on, making a rapid build up difficult.
There is no question that picking the P-51 was the right decision but that hardly renders the P-38 a piece of crap as you point out.

 

[Clean32]

"Or when australia pulled out of the F35 development because of cost overruns. the US cut off supplies/parts for the f111 until they relented."

OMG, Did this happen before or after the F-111 was retired?

View attachment 535792

well the f35 development has been a bit longer than expected, australia was one of the original signatories to the f35 program. a change of government some bad press over costs etc etc and the australian government pulled out. then ummed arrred out in out in as pollies do. as i understand it australia got back in with another change of government and a deal where the f111 were scraped locally only a few years ago, the f18 went to canada and the Super Hornets rolled in as a stop gap until the f35 became available. i think the f35s are rolling in now and the Super Hornets are to roll out next year? i think?. so the short answer is yes this did happen before the f111 was retired. i must say the Super Hornets make a rackett more like a mirage sort of make the early F18 sound like a nissan leaf in comparison. but don't hold me to all that im just recalling local press

 

[FLYBOYJ]

well the f35 development has been a bit longer than expected, australia was one of the original signatories to the f35 program. a change of government some bad press over costs etc etc and the australian government pulled out. then ummed arrred out in out in as pollies do. as i understand it australia got back in with another change of government and a deal where the f111 were scraped locally only a few years ago, the f18 went to canada and the Super Hornets rolled in as a stop gap until the f35 became available. i think the f35s are rolling in now and the Super Hornets are to roll out next year? i think?. so the short answer is yes this did happen before the f111 was retired. i must say the Super Hornets make a rackett more like a mirage sort of make the early F18 sound like a nissan leaf in comparison. but don't hold me to all that im just recalling local press

You are totally delusional. F-35s had over runs, most of them involved the US program, each partner had its own schedule/ stake/ issues within the program and the dynamics are too complicated to explain to you, especially after reading some of your comments. Australia was totally able to sustain their F-111 fleet with no help from the US and there is NO evidence that the US withheld any technical assistance because of any polices Australia imposed or suggested with regards to the F-35 program.

With that said I think you need to understand 3 things here - 1. Update your browser because you're about 3 years behind with regards to the progress of the F-35 program, 2, understand that there are several on this forum who have actively worked in industry and on warbirds, so be warned that you will be challenged with any off the cuff comment you may make. 3 There are many on here who have thoroughly studied the discussed subject matter and can back up their comments with documented facts. If you want to be an appreciated member of this forum I suggest you start doing the same.

 

[GrauGeist]

Or new Zealand having to burn there Corsairs in japan, which was Ok since they were LL. but then having america spit the dummy over still flying P51s which were purchased, all because New Zealand purchased Vampires and Not F16s. the the interference in New Zealand's attempts to sell the skyhawks and then there refusal to buy F18s at a pumped up price.

ops sorry F86 typo

easy typo just swap an 8 for a 1, as i demonstrated

Hate to say it, but you're demonstrating much more than typographical errors.
You're demonstrating a spectacular lack of knowledge.

The RNZAF never had the F-86, F-16 or F-18. They did have the Gloster Meteor F.III and T.7, the DH Vampire FB5, FB9, FB52, T11 and T55, the DH Venom FB1, the McDonnell-Douglas A-4G/K, TA-4G/K and the BAC Strikemaster Mk88.

And that's it...

 

[Clean32]

Australia was totally able to sustain their F-111 fleet with no help from the US .

how so?