P-38 or Mosquito?

[Erich]

you forget the Mossie XIX and XXX as the best RAF nachtjäger.

The Mossies were bounced many times by Bf 109G-6/AS single engine Nachtjägers in the late summer-late fall of 44. Again all in my book(s).......

 

[Lightning Guy]

Lanc, you were quoting normal max as 3,200lbs. That's not true. That's the point I was making with the 4,000lb load which could (and was) carried without any modification. The P-38 was shown to be a first rate bomber either visually with the Norden site or through overcast with APS-15 BTO system. The P-38M was probably the best American nightfighter developed during the war. I'm not sure it would have been better than the Mossie but we will never really be able to know.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

the mossie's combat record would show it to be the better night fighter...............

and about the P-38 bombing, how far could it carry 4,000lb on internal fuel?? as i have said some marks of the mossie could take 5,000lb 1,485 miles on internal fuel......................

 

[Lightning Guy]

Well, when they tested a P-38F as a torpedo bomber, it carried two torpedoes (slightly more than 4,000lbs) to a range of 1,000 miles. Again, the J and L had the benefit of leading-edge takes which increased internal fuel by about 33% so I would estimate a range for these later Lightnings of 1,300 miles or so. Granted, that is inferior to the Mossie but better than any other wartime fighter could manage (few could even carry 4,000lbs!) and in comparable to the range of most medium bombers.

 

[dead parrot]

I don't think anyone is going to convince LG that the Lightning wasn't the better plane , but just to sort things out for myself, if nothing else...

It's an interesting idea to compare each aircraft's role, but to others of the class rather than to each other. (I tried to base these at least partly on the discussion above.)

Bomber
Mossie: One of the greatest bombers of WW2
P-38: Apparently possible and certainly good enough to be comparable with some medium bombers, but not really known for it.
Winner: Mossie

Day Fighter:
Mossie: Successful in some roles, such as interceptor, but there were many better
P-38: Excellent, but few claim it was the best in the war. Probably surpassed in most roles by planes such as the Mustang, Spit, Fw190
Winner: P-38

Night Fighter
Mossie: Excellent, with demonstrated performance to prove it. Best allied nightfighter, possibly best in war...
P-38: Probably excellent, but without anywhere near the record of the Mossie
Winner: Mossie

Recce Plane
Mossie: Famously good, probably the best Allied recce plane
P-38: Excellent--but the US bought Mossies for this role, too
Winner: Mossie

High speed transport
Mossie: Very effective
P-38: Not really

Tagline
Mossie: Flew really cool pinpoint commando-raids-in-the-sky against Nazi installations just like in the movies
P-38: Shot down lots of Japanese planes
Winner: Mossie

Overall: Mossie

The P-38 was without doubt an amazing plane, but for me, the Mossie was in a class of it's own...

 

[Lightning Guy]

Excellent arguements DP. The Mossie was the better bomber, but the P-38 was very good (especially considering the Mossie was designed as a bomber and the P-38 was designed as an interceptor). In the day fighter role, the P-38 was very much better. I would argue that the P-38 was in a different class than the Fw-190 and the Spit because of it's superior range. Nightfighter is interesting, the P-38M was considered superior to the P-61 but never received a combat test (pity). The Recon role is probably a toss-up (certainly as close as the two get). The P-38 was used as a high speed transport using modified 310 gallon drop tanks to carry cargo or even stretcher cases. I think you should also add that the P-38 was THE US fighter in the Med. and that the P-38 pretty much kept the daylight bombing raids going into 1944 (but people don't like to talk about that). Still, a very interesting, and comprehensive anaylsis.

 

[dead parrot]

Well, I tell you what, you've convinced me that the two planes are a lot closer than I thought they were before reading this thread. Hadn't realized how versatile the Lightining was, or what a good performer...

 

[Gemhorse]

Well, the Mosquito was an awesome wooden aircraft, some 43 different variants, but it's single-seat version, the DH 103 Hornet, which just missed the War, certainly established what a 'refined' development it became, at 487 mph top speed....

 

[Huckebein]

I thought that, but it would have been unfair to compare the Hornet to a Lightning.

I have to echo Dead Parrot's sentiments here, LG has certainly managed to persuade me that the Lightnint was a much better aircraft than I originally thought, but then DPs little list just about summed it up for me - I couldn't find anything to argue about.

LG came back and said he would argue the P-38 was in 'a different class' to the Spit or '190 due to its range. I do hope you meant a different class of aircraft, LG (i.e. a long range fighter rather than a short-range interceptor), because then you have a point; it is difficult to compare the three equally (although the Mustang is still up there with the Lightning). I would not agree, however, that the Lightning was in a different class combat-wise. I think well-flown Fw 190s or Spitfires would have a very good chance of coming out on top against a well-flown Lightning (although thanks to your arguments I now believe the outcome would be a lot closer than I did previously).

Overall I think most people have exhausted their arguments now, as very few new points appear to be arising, but it has been a very rewarding (and educating) debate.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i think it is coming to an end, i to be honest i think more people are siding with the mossie....................

 

[Lightning Guy]

Well, if this is coming to closing remarks I will make a few. As an airframe, I do feel that the Mossie was more versatile. I feel, however, that any individual mark of the Lighting was more versatile than any individual mark of the Mossie.
The P-38 has received a bad wrap mostly because of bad press coming out of the ETO. The P-38 did have its problems in Europe, but many or even most of these were not directly related to the plane itself (poor fuels, poor early pilot training, poor tactics, and low numbers). That the P-38 was not out-classed by its Luftwaffe opposition is proven by its success in North Africa and the MTO and the really cool nickname it earned. Over the Pacific, the P-38 was THE fighter.

Huckbein, concerning a P-38 v. Spit match-up I've never seen any test data or ever the results of a mock fight. However, Tony Levier, who was a Lockheed test pilot demonstrating the proper way to use a P-38 in combat in England was recalled as saying that "the P-38J was absolutely superior in maneuverability at low altitudes, except for a well-piloted Spitfire Mk IX." Apparently, the two aircraft were close enough that it would have been VERY interesting.

The Hornet was another incredible plane. But it was at the end of an error. And of course, it did enjoy the advantage of some 600hp over the P-38.

 

[Schrage Muzik]

I feel a little silly saying this.

I belive the Mossie and the Lightning are so closely matched is is incredible. I think the biggest difference was the amount of interior space, which the Mossie obviously wins. But I think that the Lighning didn't do so well in the ETO because of it's turbo-superchargers, which did not do well in cold climates. I think which one is better comes down to which side of the Pond you hail from. I choose the Lightning, as I'm an American, and most of my grand-relatives had something to do with them. Both of my grandfathers and 3 of my granduncles flew them, in all theatres, and both of my grandmothers built them and played poker with Kelly Johnson.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

I don't think anyone is going to convince LG that the Lightning wasn't the better plane , but just to sort things out for myself, if nothing else...

It's an interesting idea to compare each aircraft's role, but to others of the class rather than to each other. (I tried to base these at least partly on the discussion above.)

Bomber
Mossie: One of the greatest bombers of WW2
P-38: Apparently possible and certainly good enough to be comparable with some medium bombers, but not really known for it.
Winner: Mossie

Day Fighter:
Mossie: Successful in some roles, such as interceptor, but there were many better
P-38: Excellent, but few claim it was the best in the war. Probably surpassed in most roles by planes such as the Mustang, Spit, Fw190
Winner: P-38

Night Fighter
Mossie: Excellent, with demonstrated performance to prove it. Best allied nightfighter, possibly best in war...
P-38: Probably excellent, but without anywhere near the record of the Mossie
Winner: Mossie

Recce Plane
Mossie: Famously good, probably the best Allied recce plane
P-38: Excellent--but the US bought Mossies for this role, too
Winner: Mossie

High speed transport
Mossie: Very effective
P-38: Not really

Tagline
Mossie: Flew really cool pinpoint commando-raids-in-the-sky against Nazi installations just like in the movies
P-38: Shot down lots of Japanese planes
Winner: Mossie

Overall: Mossie

The P-38 was without doubt an amazing plane, but for me, the Mossie was in a class of it's own...

i think tat this is a good way to leave it, it give credit to both planes, and has come to, what i feel, is the right conclusion..................

 

[kiwimac]

Just to Queer the pitch I came across these proposed designs for Late-war Italian Fighters. All of the pics without special diacritics are copyright the following URL site.

http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v3/v3n1/italtwin.html

**

**http://win.www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/sm92.html

The SM.92 flew November 12, 1943, after Italy's capitulation. All testing was carried out under Luftwaffe control. As the engineers had hoped, performance was significantly better. The SM.92 could reach 382 mph at 29,935 ft, could climb 19,680 ft in 7 min 10 sec, and could reach a service ceiling of 39,370. Range increased to 1242 miles at 335 mph.

Sourcehttp://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v3/v3n1/italtwin.html

The SM.91 flew for the first time on 10 March 1943. Performance and handling were good. The airplane could reach a maximum of 363 mph at 22,960 ft and could climb to 19,680 ft in 8 min 30 sec. It had a service ceiling of 36,090 ft and a range of 994 miles at a cruising speed of 320 mph. The SM.91 spanned 64 ft 7.25 in and was 43 ft 5.75 in long. Wing area totaled about 450 sq ft.

Sourcehttp://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v3/v3n1/italtwin.html

**

**http://sfstation.members.easyspace....hoto.mimerswell.com/air/italy/savoia/sm91.htm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Corsaro never flew. But it ought to have been an excellent airplane. Caproni estimated its maximum speed as 400 mph at 23,525 ft and ceiling as 34,450 ft. It was to climb to 19,680 ft in 7 min 9 sec. Maximum cruising speed was to be 323 mph, and maximum range would lie between 1336-1616 miles.

Source:http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v3/v3n1/italtwin.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Engine: 1x Alfa-Romeo "Tifone"(Daimler-Benz DB-605) making 1,250 hp driving a six blade contrarotating propellor.
1x FIAT A.30 radial piston engine making 700 hp driving the Campini engine
Weight: Loaded 16.538 lb
Maximum Speed: 460 mph / 520 mph with "Thermojet"
Range: 1,242 miles
Crew: 1
Armament: 4x 20 mm cannons in the wings and 1x 30 mm cannon between the cylinder banks of the engine.

Source: http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/Histories/CC-2/CC-2.htm

Hope you find it interesting

Kiwimac

 

[Lightning Guy]

I don't think the P-38's trouble in the ETO was due to the temperature. The P-38 served very successfully in the Aleutians where the temperature was as bad as it was at altitude over the continent.

Here's the thing, regardless of how you feel about this debate, it must be admitted that the P-38 was an incredible plane. So often people talk about the Ju-88 and the Mossie as being so incredibly better that everything else out there. At the very least, the P-38 was the most versatile American aircraft. As such I feel that it deserves to be mentioned with these other two.

 

[HurricaneMkIId]

Lightning Guy......

Lancaster Kicks Arse

 

[Lightning Guy]

Very nice picture. It looks like a P-38M minus the radar and the black paint.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i can't see the bottom pic, again, although i'm going to assume it's a lancaster.......................

 

[Twilight]

Right men... sorry this is late but I had a little problem with my mail...

I don't know about the combat statistics of the Lightning but....

The Mosquito....

-was the first bomber to hit Berlin.
-was the only bomber capable of flying down a street at 25ft and dropping
a 250lb bomb through the doors of a Gestapo Headquarters. Which was placed between both a school and convent.
-was the first plane to have a pressurised cockpit.
-increased its designed bomb load from 1000Lb's to 4000Lb's
-was stealth.... due to its all wood construction radar could not pick it up.
-got 3 squadrons of FW-190's moved from the Eastern Front to try and stop them raiding.
-had the lowest loss rate of any bomber in bomber command.
-marked most of the targets for the heavy bombes over Germany.
-dropped the first bouncing bomb... and the was designed to drop the ground based version of the same bomb still secret.
-could carry a 57mm gun for anti shipping duties.
-4 x 303.s and 4 x 20mm Hispano cannons 2 x 256Mb bombs and wing rockets.... nuff said.
-was built in furniture shops all over Britain and Canada.
-was used by the Americans in the Pacific..... they liked it.
-and was faster than most Axis fighters.
-oh and thanks to its radar... was one of the most feared night fighters of WW2.

And it had its own theme tune......

 

[GermansRGeniuses]

Ah crap...

HurricaneMkIId is here...


Glad we don't have any skins for him to insult!

If you get abusive pm's or anything, report it!