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Put it back on the runway, give it full up elevator, jettison your drop tanks, give it all the braking action you can without standing it on its nose, lock your inertia reel harness, jettison your canopy, and ride it into the mangroves as slow as you can manage. Grasp your harness right next to, but not touching the quick-release as you roll into the trees. PRAY!Since the thread is involving a comparison between the '51 and the '38...what do you do in a similar situation in a '51 when you lose an engine?
Since the thread is involving a comparison between the '51 and the '38...what do you do in a similar situation in a '51 when you lose an engine?
A very brave (or foolish) FAA inspector pulled an engine on me suddenly at rotation in a Beech 1900, after clandestinely pulling the autofeather circuit breaker. Fortunately it was a 300 ft wide runway, because quick as I was, we were nearly 30° off heading before I got the yaw stopped, and the plane was already starting into a yaw induced roll. Fortunately, I had the gear in transit when it happened, and we were light, so it was a no flap takeoff. Still, with 1100 HP working off center on a 13,000 lb airframe, and the dead prop windmilling, there was practically zero climb until the gear completed its cycle. Once cleaned up and up to VySE with the proper bank angle, it climbed quite well.You do not have to fight the aircraft wanting to yaw badly and you do not have to identify the correct engine and shut it down
A very brave (or foolish) FAA inspector pulled an engine on me suddenly at rotation in a Beech 1900, after clandestinely pulling the autofeather circuit breaker. Fortunately it was a 300 ft wide runway, because quick as I was, we were nearly 30° off heading before I got the yaw stopped, and the plane was already starting into a yaw induced roll. Fortunately, I had the gear in transit when it happened, and we were light, so it was a no flap takeoff. Still, with 1100 HP working off center on a 13,000 lb airframe, and the dead prop windmilling, there was practically zero climb until the gear completed its cycle. Once cleaned up and up to VySE with the proper bank angle, it climbed quite well.
You can bet I was some kind of pissed off at the Fed and just waiting for him to criticize my performance. Instead, he said "That's it, we're done, good show. Take me home."
Not wanting to look a gift horse in the mouth, I kept my mouth shut, but filed an ASRS report, and my Chief Pilot wrote a nastygram to the inspector's boss, who happened to be our airline's PIO. I never saw that inspector on one of our planes again.
Cheers,
Wes
You do not have to fight the aircraft wanting to yaw badly and you do not have to identify the correct engine and shut it down after reducing power on the remaining engine against all instinct. You only have to determine the best place to park and if the best option is gear up or down. Given that most airstrips, even in war, were positioned where you had a fairly clear path straight ahead that was not necessarily hazardous.
Assuming you had a long strip and/or runout zone as you describe-should an engine failure occur in a '38, why would you not just pull both engines to idle and do the same thing? I'm not a pilot, but it seems to me as if a "panic braking" job would be easier to accomplish with a plane with tricycle gear than a tail dragger-perhaps I'm wrong here.
Fighter strips on Pacific islands weren't known for their overly generous runway lengths, and they usually had palm forests or mangrove swamps at the ends of the runways with a berm of bulldozed slash left from the SeaBees "blitzbuild" construction techniques. Not your preferred overrun safety zone. A P38 loaded for a 700 mile strike mission with drop tanks and external ordnance would not be my chosen chariot for a romp in the woods.Assuming you had a long strip and/or runout zone as you describe-should an engine failure occur in a '38, why would you not just pull both engines to idle and do the same thing?
Assuming you had a long strip and/or runout zone as you describe-should an engine failure occur in a '38, why would you not just pull both engines to idle and do the same thing? I'm not a pilot, but it seems to me as if a "panic braking" job would be easier to accomplish with a plane with tricycle gear than a tail dragger-perhaps I'm wrong here.
My friend Kathleen said the 737-800s she was flying had an FMS-FADEC setup that would automatically trim the power on the working engine for best performance and controllability if an uncommanded power loss happened on one engine with gear down and speed > V1. Is that what you're talking about? What are you flying these days?And you don't have to push up the power to continue the engine out takeoff in most instances.
You're right about that, but the issue with a heavily loaded P38 is the much greater weight and takeoff speed, so you'll be farther down the runway than a single engine fighter, going faster, and you still only have two mainwheel brakes to stop all that inertia. And unlike modern twins, no reverse thrust capabilities.it seems to me as if a "panic braking" job would be easier to accomplish with a plane with tricycle gear than a tail dragger
My friend Kathleen said the 737-800s she was flying had an FMS-FADEC setup that would automatically trim the power on the working engine for best performance and controllability if an uncommanded power loss happened on one engine with gear down and speed > V1. Is that what you're talking about? What are you flying these days?
Cheers,
Wes
You're right about that, but the issue with a heavily loaded P38 is the much greater weight and takeoff speed, so you'll be farther down the runway than a single engine fighter, going faster, and you still only have two mainwheel brakes to stop all that inertia. And unlike modern twins, no reverse thrust capabilities.
Cheers,
Wes
I understand what you're saying and it makes sense. But, when comparing with the Mustang-is that necessarily true (greater weight and only 2 mainwheel brakes, yes of course). Let's say you load a Mustang and a Lightning with 2000 lbs of bombs (which I recall was the rated load on later P-51s). The Lightning has nearly twice the HP, less than 2x the weight (IIRC-need to verify that) and a relatively high-lift wing. It was noted for acceleration. In that situation-would it have a greater takeoff speed, or be further down the runway at takeoff speed, than the Mustang? Just curious-not trying to start a fight or anything.
Idaho,
On the brake front both the P38 and P51 only had main wheel brakes. My guess the P38 might be able to stop easier due to no fear of tipping during a hard braking event.
My guess on takeoff is the P38 would most likely get airborne sooner for two reasons: first the 38 could go to full power almost immediately, and second combined with its wing size, weight gain compared to its overall weight would get airborne slightly sooner as well as having a lower takeoff speed.
These are guesses based on what I've seen with the planes I've flown, but are nothing but a guess.
Cheers,
Biff
I understand what you're saying and it makes sense. But, when comparing with the Mustang-is that necessarily true
My guess on takeoff is the P38 would most likely get airborne sooner for two reasons: first the 38 could go to full power almost immediately, and second combined with its wing size, weight gain compared to its overall weight would get airborne slightly sooner as well as having a lower takeoff speed.
The one thing that's not addressed in this conversation is the difference in critical speeds between a single and a twin. Your Mustang pilot can lift off when his airplane is ready to fly, probably 1.2 or so stall speed at its current weight. A Lightning wants to fly way below single engine control speed, and a prudent pilot will keep it pinned down until at or near that speed. I'm betting that the British test pilots that derived Greyman's figures didn't do that, and especially didn't do it loaded for a Guadalcanal - Rabaul strike with drop tanks and two 1000 lb bombs. Difference between theoretical world and combat world.P-38F
Take-off over 50ft obstacle: 600 yards (15,500 lb)
Landing over 50ft obstacle: 800 yards (13,360 lb)
P-51B/C
Take-off over 50ft obstacle: 660 yards (9,190 lb)
Landing over 50ft obstacle: 900 yards (7,720 lb)
The one thing that's not addressed in this conversation is the difference in critical speeds between a single and a twin. Your Mustang pilot can lift off when his airplane is ready to fly, probably 1.2 or so stall speed at its current weight. A Lightning wants to fly way below single engine control speed, and a prudent pilot will keep it pinned down until at or near that speed. I'm betting that the British test pilots that derived Greyman's figures didn't do that, and especially didn't do it loaded for a Guadalcanal - Rabaul strike with drop tanks and two 1000 lb bombs. Difference between theoretical world and combat world.
I've been to Hamilton, I've been to Oshkosh, and admittedly, at an airshow they're lightly loaded, but the Lightnings had visibly longer takeoff runs than the Mustangs.
Cheers,
Wes
Well in order to pursue this any further, we'd have to know the weight and configuration conditions under which the the British tests were done, and whether they were comparable between the two aircraft in practical terms.Wes,
Not surprising. However think about taking 1K worth of armor, fuel tanks, guns and ammo out of a 9k airplane vice a 15k airplane. The lighter plane will get a bigger boost in performance than the heavier one due to percentage of total weight removed.
Cheers,
Biff