P-39 D Aircobra vs. Me-109

Gemhorse · Sep 17, 2004

Although there's up to 50 P-39 restorations going on now world-wide, there is a 2nd P-39 flying now, a P-39-Q6 belonging to The Fighter Collection. It's a veteran too, served with the 71st Tactical Reconnaissance Group in PNG. - Also, just to illustrate the high-art of the Restorers, former Astronaut Frank Borman, a Mustang owner, had a rare P-63 restored in such a manner as to be exactly as it would have left the factory with every piece of armour plate, every item of ordnance, every stencil to be precisely 1944 military specification. He had all this done at 'Square One Aviation' in Chino, LA., [Mustang specialists], and it won awards etc. ....Really warms the heart, what these guys do...they're like 'time capsules'.....You Americans are fortunate there is so much of this going on where it's accessible to you in Stateside....

delcyros · Mar 4, 2005

Remember the russian did some nice "modifications" on the lend lease fighters, esspecially on the P-39. They often removed the heavy 37mm gun in favour to the much better 20 mm they used. That spared some weight, too. As did the removal of most of the armorplates (even cockpit armor was removed). Actually the russian modified P-39 was very much a succesful plane and a good contender for Bf-109 in low altitude (where most dogfights happen on the eastern front). Lowering the weight was a common method for the russians to improve the design. The P-39 (mod.) was a little bit faster tahn the US model, it did accelerate better and the reduced wingload together with more powerload made it an even better turnfighter. Check Jakovlevs statements about field modifications in his book! I do think it is underrated a bit. (and I like the design anyway..)

wmaxt · Mar 4, 2005

delcyros said:
Remember the russian did some nice "modifications" on the lend lease fighters, esspecially on the P-39. They often removed the heavy 37mm gun in favour to the much better 20 mm they used. That spared some weight, too. As did the removal of most of the armorplates (even cockpit armor was removed). Actually the russian modified P-39 was very much a succesful plane and a good contender for Bf-109 in low altitude (where most dogfights happen on the eastern front). Lowering the weight was a common method for the russians to improve the design. The P-39 (mod.) was a little bit faster tahn the US model, it did accelerate better and the reduced wingload together with more powerload made it an even better turnfighter. Check Jakovlevs statements about field modifications in his book! I do think it is underrated a bit. (and I like the design anyway..)

It has been stated that the P-39 really suffered from the Wright field engineers who made many unilateral changes that hurt the performance in the name of "stream lining" it. This was done without testing or imput from the designers. It slowed the plane by appx 50-65mph and limited altitude to 16,000ft for effective flight.

A modifided P-39 was actually a prime contender at various air races in the US after the war winning often.

Ben Kelesy (AAF P-38 project manager) through Warren Bodie states the crash of the very first P-38 saved it from the same fate or it may have ended up like the "Castrated Lightnings".

Udet · Mar 4, 2005

This is a very interesting thread.

I do think no one has ever come up with any sort of sufficient explanation on how some soviet pilots were succesful flying the P-39 against the Bf109s.

Pokryshkyn was of course a superb pilot -many say far better than Kozhedub- and since the P-39 was not that bad, he made the best out of the plane in combat against German fighters.

The soviet story on Vadim Fadeyev is another one of the soviet propaganda tales. While he made an excellent pilot, it was the soviet fashion to tell all of their aces who died in combat did so only against "overwhelming" odds.

You know, like if soviet heroes had not been humans, but kind of superior beings, that could only be defeated when the odds were totally overwhelming.

Vadim was a fine pilot, but the story is rather different: in a dogfight involving several German and soviet aircraft, he got shot down and killed by a single Bf109 that engaged him. The point is the soviet propaganda guys wanted to cover up as much as possible the real fate of many of their heroes.

A similar tale occured with one of the top soviet female aces, Lilya Lytvak, depicted by the soviet propaganda "as strikingly beautiful, smart, top pilot, warm person" and lots of blah, blah...it has been told she went down and got killed only when 8, 9 or 10 Bf109´s got her alone. Her end was not that complex: a colonel of the russian army told me that was propagana hogwash, she got shot down and killed in a one against one match against a Bf109.

Lev Shestakov, another ace, who got killed in combat with a single stuka was given a story that would as well cover up his end, fighting against a sole single engined enemy bomber.

Those are only a few cases guys.

CharlesBronson · Mar 4, 2005

Those histories are completely crap, if you always have 6 o 7 Messer per Yak or Lagg, so the produccion of the bf-109 was not 33000, but 330000.

Anyway yes, there was a bunch of soviet aces in the Airacobra wich is not a bad aircraft.

The sistem of comfirm the claims was also controversial, like many others.

A document about this particular issue.

cheddar cheese · Mar 5, 2005

Nice info! 8)

delcyros · Mar 5, 2005

Yeah, propaganda remains a problem if you want to compare both designs properly. Even with this in mind, russian ace pilots often prefered the P-39 until the Yak 3 and La 5 became operational in numbers. (..as the french pilots of Normandi Njiemen prefered the Yak 3 at a time, at which Spitfire IX and P-51 was avaiable, too.) However, german pilots didn´t feel inferior to the russian (even if they are clearly outnumbered in 1944) planes, technically. (From 1943 on they didn´t feel superior, too.)It was a matter of the pilots.

KraziKanuK · Mar 5, 2005

(..as the french pilots of Normandi Njiemen prefered the Yak 3 at a time, at which Spitfire IX and P-51 was avaiable, too.)

delcyros,

when did the Soviets get P-51s?

Afaik they received 10 from the Brits (Allison engines) and mayby had a few they salvaged that were left at Poltava.

Anonymous · Mar 6, 2005

The P-39 performance below about 16,000 feet rivaled that of the Bf109. Even the Bf109G-6 barely outperforms it in terms of speed and climb. The P-39 was not liked by American pilots because of its sluggish medium-high altitude performance, but at low altitudes it was a very hot fighter. It was also had much more firepower than early Soviet fighters, which typically had two 7.7 mm, or one 7.7 and one 12.7mm. The 37mm gun was not much good for dogfighting, but it was excellent for killing German bombers. Also, the P-39 had a much better gunsight than Soviet figthers - a huge factor often not considered in matching up fighters (a huge disadvantage for Soviet and Japanese fighters in general).

Some info to consider:

Specification of Bell P-39D Airacobra:

Engine: One 1150 hp Allison V-1710-35 twelve-cylinder liquid cooled engine. Performance: Maximum speed 309 mph at sea level, 335 mph at 5000 feet, 355 mph at 10,000 feet, 368 mph at 12,000 feet, and 360 mph at 15,000 feet. An altitude of 5000 feet could be reached in 1.9 minutes. It took 5.7 minutes to reach an altitude of 15,000 feet and 9.1 minutes to reach 20,000 feet. Service ceiling was 32,100 feet. Maximum range (clean) was 600 miles at 10,000 feet at 231 mph. Range with one 145.7 Imp gal drop tank was 1100 miles at 196 mph. Weights: 5462 pounds empty, 7500 pounds gross, and 8200 pounds maximum takeoff. Dimensions: Wingspan 34 feet 0 inches, length 30 feet 2 inches, height 11 feet 10 inches, and wing area 213 square feet. Armament: One 37-mm cannon in the nose with 30 rounds. Four wing-mounted 0.30-inch machine guns with 1000 rpg, two fuselage-mounted 0.50-inch machine guns with 200 rounds per gun. One 250 lb, 325-lb, or 500-lb bomb could be carried underneath the fuselage.
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p39_4.html

Specifications of the P-39Q-5-BE:

One Allison V-1710-85 engine rated at 1200 hp at sea level and 1125 hp at 15,500 feet. Maximum speed 330 mph at 5000 feet, 357 mph at 10,000 feet, 376 mph at 15,000 feet. Climb to 5000 feet in 2.0 minutes. Climb to 20,000 feet in 8.5 minutes. Maximum range (clean) was 525 miles at 20,000 feet at 250 mph. With one 145.7 Imp gal drop tank, range was 1075 miles at 196 mph. Service ceiling was 35,000 feet. Weights were 5645 pounds empty, 7600 pounds normal loaded, 8300 pounds maximum loaded. Dimensions: Wingspan 34 feet 0 inches, length 30 feet 2 inches, height 12 feet 5 inches, wing area 213 square feet.
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p39_15.html

Bf 109G-6

Maximum speed 623 kph (387 mph) at 7000 meters (22970 ft), 544 kph (338 mph) at sea level. Climb to 5791 meters (19000 ft) in 6 minutes. Service ceiling 11735 meters (38500 ft). Maximum ceiling 12116 meters (39750 ft). Range 724 km (450 miles) at 531 kph (330 mph) at 5791 meters (19000 ft), 990 km (615 miles) at 418 kph (260 mph) at 5791 meters (19000 ft).
http://www.bf109.com/performance.html#G6

The Airacobra was quite popular with its Russian pilots, who appreciated its heavy armament, its excellent low-altitude performance, and its ability to absorb an incredible amount of battle damage. When operating at low altitudes, the Airacobra was often able to hold its own against top-of-the-line German fighters. Some Soviet pilots felt that the P-39 outclassed even the Messerschmitt Bf 109 and Focke Wulf FW 190 at altitudes below 10,000 feet. Some of the users of the type were Guard (ie. elite) Fighter Regiments 16 GIAP, 19 GIAP, 21 GIAP, 72 GIAP, 100 GIAP, 213 GIAP (previously 508 IAP) and Fighter Regiments 196 IAP, 255 IAP, 508 IAP (later 213 GIAP).

Several Soviet Airacobra aces are known. Lieutenant Colonel of the Guards Alexander I. Pokryshin, a Soviet ace with 59 kills to his credit, scored 48 of these in a P-39. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross by President Roosevelt. There are eight other P-39 pilots with at least 20 kills. Among top Airacobra aces were Grigorii A Rechkalov (44 kills) , Nikolai D Gulayev (36 kills), Ivan I Babak, Aleksandr F Klubov, Andrei I Trud, and the brothers Boris B Glinka and Dmitrii B Glinka

The Soviets preferred the 20-mm Hispano cannon of the P-400 over the 37mm of other Airacobra variants because of its greater reliability. In addition, the trajectory of the shells from the 20-mm cannon more closely matched that of the 0.50-inch guns, making for a greater concentration of fire. In the P-39Q, the Soviets usually removed the underwing guns or had them removed at the factory, preferring a better performance over the enhanced firepower.
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p39_19.html

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Lunatic

delcyros · Mar 6, 2005

The russians did not got any Mustangs in numbers,
but there was avaiability for the french pilots of Normandie Njiemen late in 1944/early 1945 to take over some P-51 /Spitfire (probably model IX, but I´m not sure in that, will check out). It was some kind of gift for de gaulle to deploy french troops against germans (including air forces).
They voted for the Yak-3. (some of them are displayed in french museums)
That squadron really has an interesting story, we can discuss on another board.
However, the P-39 Q was really a good fighter, it could keep it´s energy during turns better than the Fw-190, making it an effictive weapon in the hands of skilled pilots. Acceleration and initially climb wasn´t that impressive (in comparison with Bf-109 models) but it was a stable weapon platform and the russian modifications made it a good turn-fighter, too. Very much a succesful design in low altitudes (where most kills happen over russia)in my
eyes.

Anonymous · Mar 6, 2005

To 8,000-10,000 feet the P-39 climbed as well as the 109's of the same time periods, which implies similar level acceleration.

Had the full supercharger (or a turbo-supercharger) been left on the plane, it would have been very competative with all enemy fighters. As has already been pointed out, it was gutted by beurocrats who did not understand aircraft design but thought they did.

=S=

Lunatic

CharlesBronson · Mar 6, 2005

Some data referent to Airacobra P-39D.

Internal arrangement of gunsigth and winshield armour in P-39D.

The good caracteristics in turn are at list, dobtful, I wrote that is a good plane but the turn ability is not his strong point. The Bf-109G-2 and BF-109F-4 are both better dogfighters than any P-39 version.

I have the Manual for the P-39Q, in wich is strongly recomended avoid any innecesary loop of quik turn, and when you carry a droptank or bomb, according to some pilots, you need velvet hands.

Anyway Airacobra is a more proficient bomber destroyer than the Messers and much better aircraft that Yak-1, mig-1 or I-16.

Anonymous · Mar 6, 2005

Very good pilots were able to make the P-39 manuver very well. Lesser pilots had a lot of problems with it. The plane was inheriantly unstable, which can make it very manuverable or very dangerous, depending on the pilot. US pilots didn't like this, as learning to be good in it was dangerous. Soviet pilots... well either you learned to be very good or you were dead anyway.

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Lunatic

wmaxt · Mar 6, 2005

RG_Lunatic said:
Very good pilots were able to make the P-39 manuver very well. Lesser pilots had a lot of problems with it. The plane was inheriantly unstable, which can make it very manuverable or very dangerous, depending on the pilot. US pilots didn't like this, as learning to be good in it was dangerous. Soviet pilots... well either you learned to be very good or you were dead anyway.

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Lunatic

Sorry out of topic question - RG what was the site that quoted P-51 cruise speeds?

Anonymous · Mar 6, 2005

wmaxt said:
Sorry out of topic question - RG what was the site that quoted P-51 cruise speeds?

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_10.html <== 395 mph for 950 miles, clean.

http://www.seedwiki.com/wiki/Flight Gear/Mustang Manual.htm <== 363 mph

There are actually quite a few sources giving different cruising speeds. But, something between 360 and 395 mph at about 20-25 thousand feet was possible in "full auto-rich" mode, though at lower speeds longer range could be had. Optimal cruise speed for maximum range seems to have been around 275 mph clean, about 215 mph with drop tanks.

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Lunatic

DAVIDICUS · Mar 7, 2005

RG_Lunatic:

On an unrelated note, do you know what the cruising speed was for the P-47 for any given altitudes?

Anonymous · Mar 7, 2005

DAVIDICUS said:
RG_Lunatic:

On an unrelated note, do you know what the cruising speed was for the P-47 for any given altitudes?

I believe it was about 260 mph, but I don't have a lot of specifics on altitude (I'd imagine it was above 15K, probably above 20K). I've seen figures as high as 350 mph, but I don't believe this is true. The fast cruise speed for the P-47N was 300 mph, and it should be faster than the D because of the wing design and more robust C series engine.

http://www.hill.af.mil/museum/photos/wwii/p-47.htm <== quotes 260 mph.

http://usfighter.tripod.com/p47.htm <== quotes 260 mph.

http://www.americanairpowermuseum.com/htm/p47.htm <== P-47N = 300 mph

According to the JBaugher site:

Specifications of the P-47D-25-RE:

One Pratt and Whitney R-2800-59 Double Wasp eighteen-cylinder air-cooled radial, war emergency power of 2535 hp. Maximum speed was 429 mph at 30,000 feet, 406 mph at 20,000 feet, 375 mph at 10,000 feet, 350 mph at sea level. Initial climb rate was 2780 feet per minute. Climb rate at 30,000 feet was 1575 feet per minute. Service ceiling was 40,000 feet, and range was 950 miles at 10,000 feet. Range with maximum external fuel was 1800 miles at 10,000 feet at 195 mph.

So it seems for the P-47D it was 260 mph clean cruise (at unknown altitude), 195 mph with tanks at 10K.

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Lunatic

CharlesBronson · Mar 7, 2005

Flight indications in manual for P-39Q-1

The Jug Rules! · Mar 7, 2005

Lightning Guy said:
Every now and then I can catch an episode of Black Sheep Squadron on the History Channel. It wasn't always the most accurate in its technical aspects but I liked it. There was one episode that featured a couple of P-38s.

I remember that one. One of the '38 pilots went nuts and put a few holes in Boyington's tail...

I wonder was it based on a true story?

DAVIDICUS · Mar 7, 2005

Thanks RG_Lunatic. That's pretty slow. Sort of like a flying locomotive.

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