P-39 D Aircobra vs. Me-109

[delcyros]

Yeah, the P-39 was surely a very advanced plane of it´s time
(tricycle carriage, turbochargers, good vissiblity) in general. It made also impact on german designs (look at the Me-309 prototypes for example), thanks to the impressions it made in the hands of skilled russian pilots.
However, not all russian pilots were like Prokryshkin or Khozedub. As I pointed out above, the russian modifications made the handling (according to Yakolev) more forgiving to pilots (reducing the stall speed a little=better handling, increasing acelleration and speed, thanks to reduced weight). Without doubt it was the most popular plane of the land lease fighters for russian pilots. However it could barely match a Bf-109 F2/F4/G2 or G10 in acceleration and initial climb and dive (that was noticed by Luftwaffe Jaeger). The Bf-109 G6 is another story, it depends. Was it in a clear fighter configuration (without 2 MG151/20 wing gondolas) and what engine (the later Bf-109 G6 with DB 605 ASCM/ASCDM was much better) was fitted. Clear fighter configurations were, however, not very common on the eastern front (thanks partly to the IL-2, they simply need more firepower). That works for the P-39. Accelleration depends mostly on thrust(recalculate horsepower to thrust will make it easier)/weight ratio, screw and the aerodynamical drag of the airframe. I have lots of datas about that. (my books are packed however, I move from Fürstenwalde to Kreuzberg (Berlin) in the moment, will finish next weekend) The differences between Bf-109 and P-39 were in general not that decisive in the common dogfight altitudes over russia. And the P-39 (mod.) was even better in some parameters. It is an advanced design, it was credited with a lot of arial victories, it was liked by their russian pilots and it stayed in front line use over years, what a plane!

 

[cheddar cheese]

I must admit I do like the P-39 very much, it never ceases to amaze me!

 

[Udet]

This is all very interesting guys.

After reading a good deal of info, i am convinced the P-39 was not that bad (ugly as a hangover though).

Superb pilots such as Pokryshkyn were not available for the VVS in numbers, the bulk of soviet pilots got hastily trained and sent to the frontlines. Very few pilots had the luxury of having a Pokryshkyn training them.

If the soviets indeed started producing very capable fighters such as the late Yaks and Las, i find it amazing the lendleased P-39s saw service in the VVS until the very last day of the war. The training of their pilots was mediocre and their losses continued to be prohibitive throughout the war.

Losses of VVS P-39s were extremely high; all you have to do is to gather as much information as you can on the airbattlers over the Kuban bridgehead of 1943, when the soviet airforce proved uncapable of gaining air superiority in the area. German reports showed P-39s and British fighters were being engaged in numbers.

The P-39 certainly continues to be sort of an enigma: i recall reading records on the little numbers of P-39s which saw action against the Luftwaffe in the west, and the majority of them died in combat.

 

[delcyros]

Losses of russian units were high in general. The german Jagdgruppen used superior tactics to beat them badly. The russians also liked very light designs, such like Yak´s. They don´t prefered durability and therefore the rate of survivability isn´t very impressive. Kind of japanese doctrine or isn´t it? But still the germans suffered high losses, too. 1943 was a turning year in the curse of war in russia. The russian Air forces with mostly rookie pilots had bad losses, yes. But it was still the year Prokryshkin, Khozedub, Enlajev and others could develop useful fighter tatctics against the germans. That was possible because the P-39 was avaiable . They would have even more a bad time if they had to stay in their Yak 1,Yak 7, MiG-1, I-16 or LaGG-3. Prokryshkin wrote (years later I must admit) that the plane opened new tactics, made succesful boom ´n Zoom possible and made turn ´n burn obsolete. Compare a I-16 fighter pilot with one, sitting in a P-39. I would make my choice quickly...

 

[Anonymous]

Every now and then I can catch an episode of Black Sheep Squadron on the History Channel. It wasn't always the most accurate in its technical aspects but I liked it. There was one episode that featured a couple of P-38s.

I remember that one. One of the '38 pilots went nuts and put a few holes in Boyington's tail...

I wonder was it based on a true story?

Hmmm... do you really think that Bong or McGuire were such treasonous idiots as described? I gaurantee you it was pure fiction - bad fiction at that!

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks RG_Lunatic. That's pretty slow. Sort of like a flying locomotive.

Actually it was on the fast side of normal for WWII fighters. The P-51 is the exception, only a handful of WWII fighters could maintain speeds above 280 mph in cruising (lean) condition.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[DJ_Dalton]

Quotes:
"Fadieyev recorded 394 battle missions, 51 combats, 17 alone kills and other 3 group victories. While flying in a P-39 D-2 (from 9 April 1943, till 5 May 1943), he downed 14 Bf 109 and 1 Ju 87. He was KIA on 5 May 1943 on a lone fight against group of 12 Bf 109's."
1 vs 12 ??? Insane odds....

"But Klubov kept the machine in control and landed successfully without his landing gear down. Aviators, standing on the runway, rapidly ran to help him, but Klubov climbed as calm as ever out of his cockpit. He walked around his plane, wondering over all the many bullet holes and said to his aircraft, "You fought very well, my friend!"

Klubov said nothing about his duel with six Messerschmitts, nor that he had shot down two of them.

1-6 ??? And he got 2 of em???
(He flew 457 sorties and took part in 95 air combats. He scored 31 personal victories and another 19 were claimed as 'group' kills)

"The 16 GvIAP entered battle 9 April 1943 and by the end of that month, had been in 28 air battles, in which Soviet pilots downed 79 aircraft of the following types: 14 Bf 109E, 12 Bf 109F, 45 Bf 109G, 2 FW 190, 4 Ju 88, 1 Do 217, and 1 Ju 87. The most successful pilots of this period were: Cpt. A. I. Pokryshkin - 10 Bf 109, Sen. Lt. V. I. Fadieyev - 12 Bf 109 and Sen. Lt. G.A. Rechkalov - 7 Bf 109 + 1 Ju 88"

Note: P-39 was a favourite weapon of Pokryshkin, he still flew on that type, when his all 9th Fighter Division was already all reequiped by La-7 fighters. In 1943 Pokryshkin made useful P-39 modifications, bound all armament fire into one stick button, so a wave of 37 mm cannon and 12.7 mm heavy gun shells can devestate any enemy plane in one moment.

First off it would be EXTREMELY unlikely for that many Bf-109E's to have remained in the field, even in Russia in such numbers as late as April 1943, but thats not the real issue. Everyone knows the Russians padded. If they did take them, they probably took them abandoned on the ground. They were getting spanked in 1943. Not as bad as the previous year, but bad. It really didnt' start going well for them until a about a year later and their pilots and aircraft were never that good and were always overrated. The Russian's love stories about being outnumbered 20-1 and prevailing. They had Lidya Litvak set upon by the whole Luftwaffe...lol

Klubov was lucky to get home that fight. I'm sure he took two down...lol

 

[delcyros]

The P-39 also filled a needed role in the soviet air force. From late 1942 on, the red army was more and more advancing and it happens quite often that the tanks advanced beyond the range of their air cover, making them good food for the obsolete Stuka and Henschel Schlachtflieger. It was not before the introduction of the P-39 that the soviets had a comparable fighter with good range. (The Yak-7 did the job earlier but it was clearly outclassed by the Bf-109 F/G and Fw-190 A)

 

[wmaxt]

Thanks RG_Lunatic. That's pretty slow. Sort of like a flying locomotive.

Actually it was on the fast side of normal for WWII fighters. The P-51 is the exception, only a handful of WWII fighters could maintain speeds above 280 mph in cruising (lean) condition.

=S=

Actually RG the Baugher figures are a typo at 390 mph (Hghiest continous power setting) the P-51 range is 450mi Total. The 940mi Baugher cites is combat range using internal fuel and the most economical speeds whenever possible and 5 minuets of full power for combat. The P-38 s highest clean continous speed was 388mi/hr for almost exactly the same distance. As I showed in another post the P-38 was slightly better in fuel consumption but carried a little less fuel internaly.

Max range speeds for the P-38/P-51 are also within a few miles an hour. Once the P-47 got sufficent internal fuel it wasn't far behind.

I've searched a large number of sites ONLY those two you mentioned were as high as you cite. I have a P-38 flight manual and have a P-51 manual on the way for final verification. Check out the "The Smooth Page of the P-51 Mustang" http://www-ref.usc.edu/--(horizontal squigal)nagle/P51perf.html for more accurate info.

Cruise speeds for escort are always based on the bomber speeds until the enemy is sighted.

I do agree that the P-38 and the P-51 were in a class by themselves. A fighter is useless if it doesn't have the fuel and performance to do the job where it needs to be done.

 

[Anonymous]

wmax,

I've spoken to real WWII P-51 pilots who say that they typically conducted their screening sweeps at speeds in excess of 250 IAS at 25,000-28,000 feet, in the lean power condition. That works out to about 360+ mph TAS.

What the cruising speed when "escorting" the bombers was is irrelevant, since P-51's didn't do this starting with Big Week. Typically, for a raid into Germany, four different sets of P-51's were staged to escort at different points along the route after the P-47's range was exceeded (they escorted first). Once they got into escort position, they conducted sweeping patrols across the front of the bomber formation. When the next group of escort planes arrived to releave them, they were freed to go down and hunt the Luftwaffe.

The P-38 speed you quote is in the rich condition, which greatly reduces range. Seriously, you are not saying the fuel consumption performance of the P-38 was anywhere near as good as that of the P-51 are you? The P-51 had far less drag even without the radiator thrust system being accounted for - with the radiator thrust system you have to remove the drag created by the cooling system entirely, which gives it a huge advantage when it comes to sustained speed and range over any other WWII plane.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Anonymous]

wmax - see http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=59144#59144

=S=

Lunatic

 

[The Jug Rules!]

Hmmm... do you really think that Bong or McGuire were such treasonous idiots as described? I gaurantee you it was pure fiction - bad fiction at that!

=S=

Lunatic

 

[CharlesBronson]

It is surprising how many later USAAF aces opened their scores flying the Bell fighter. However, only one pilot William F. Fiedler Jr. managed to down five opponents flying the Airacobra, making him the only true ace on the type. Fiedler was fighting against Japanese over Guadalcanal with 347th Fighter Group.

Bell P-39D-1 Airacobra
Ser. no 41-38359
8th Fighter (Pursuit) Group, New Guinea, 1942
pilot George Welch

Those times 8th Fighter Group pilots often used flamboyant white aircraft symbols to mark victories. George Welch was no exception. Note that his first victim downed over Ewa seemed to be quite large at least for him.

In late spring 1942 Wagner took two squadrons of Airacobra equipped 8th Fighter Group, and moved with them to New Guinea still being officially assigned to 5th FC. On April 30th 1942 he downed three Zeros while flying P-39, while Graham Greene of 35th PS destroyed another one. These four kills were first victories of the 8th Fighter Group. Because of his strange assignment status his three victories were not credited officially and thus they are not counted in USAF Historical Study, but now Mr. Frank Olynyk considers them as valid. On the other hand it is hard to prove fully their authenticity as far as survived Japanese loss reports show less than four downed Zeros claimed by 8th FG on that day.

Bell P-39F Airacobra
Ser. no 41-7170
8th Fighter (Pursuit) Group, New Guinea, 1942
pilot Boyd Wagner

The Bell Airacobras rejected by the RAF was quickly put in service in the Pacific with the P-400 name. A funnie fact about this aircraft is that it lack of breathing O2 due incompatibilities between the US and British sistem.

Bell P-400 Airacobra
39th Fighter (Pursuit) Squadron, 35th Fighter (Pursuit) Group
Port Moresby, New Guinea, 1942
pilot Richard Suehr

The plane carried factory-applied camouflage to British standards and RAF insignia, although the latter were exchanged to US stars. In such form the aircraft was assigned to 39th FS, 35th FG, which headed to New Guinea to defend Port Moresby.


Bell P-400 Airacobra
80th Fighter (Pursuit) Squadron, 8th Fighter (Pursuit) Group
Milne Bay, New Guinea, 1943
pilot Norb Ruff

The pilots also apreciated armor wich was superior to the P-39D and the 7 gun battery ( 4x.30 + 2x.50 + 1x20mm hispano) that can rip apart japaneses planes in air and ground. The speed was also superios than mostly jap fighters and it can outrun and outdive the ( at this time) temible Cero.

However they found it less agile in dogfight than P-40.


Images from http://www.ipmsstockholm.org

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

great profiles...............

 

[CharlesBronson]

Alexander Pokryshkin tactics to defeat the Me-109.

Two vs one (attacker and cover):

Two vs two (attacker and cover):

Turn with a Me109:

Head on attack:

Evasive climb to turn

Evasive climb with attack

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Very Cool!

 

[evangilder]

Neat stuff!

 

[Nonskimmer]

Agreed!

 

[lesofprimus]

Have em saved on my computer already... Ive had em for a few years already... LOL..

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Have em saved on my computer already... Ive had em for a few years already... LOL..

ewww - you sly dog you!