P-47 versus FW-190

[pbehn]

Dunn's main gripe with the Mustang was the tail-warning radars installed in later versions, which ruined it's handling, in his eyes. He didn't like the Air Force adding all kinds of "extraneous" crap on basically great aircraft. IIRC, the tail-warning radar was nearly 400 lbs., which would screw up COG and other important things, along with the extra fuel tank behind the pilot. I've got his book around here someplace.

It was a tail warning RADAR not a section of the Chain Home system it weighed about 25 pounds Tail warning radar on P-51 ? The extra tank behind the pilot was fitted early on and retro fitted in the field to all. If he didn't like it he should have told the ground crew to leave it empty and practiced swimming.

 

[Barrett]

Assuming the December 43 report is the same as the excerpt, who had 17 months of combat by then? It does not seem to equate to 200 P-40 hours!

Also assuming that the Jug was a C model...

 

[MIflyer]

I recall his beef about the tail warning radar. But I do not think you could even tell the APS-13 was there. And it weighs nowhere near 400 lb; I have picked one up and it could not be more than 50 lb, probably less. They used two of them for altitude fuses for the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

.

 

[Spitlead]

I too was surprised that the P-47 could out turn the FW190 at nearly all altitudes. And this test should not be affected by the combat experience (or lack thereof) of the two pilots. Never would've guessed. Also, was a surprised at the climb difference and that the P-47 could catch up and pass the 190. Though if a FW190 was on your tail, going into a climb in a P-47 would not be advised as the 190 would close quickly and get the shot. That's where you'd point the Jug to the ground and fall out of the sky like a brick.

 

[Navalwarrior]

Doesn't say which model the 190 is

Resp:
I suspect the FW190 was pretty dated by the time the test was completed (shipment time to US, etc).

 

[DrumBob]

I got a kick out of where it said the nose of the Thunderbolt is too large for ground strafing. Tell that to the guys in the 9th AAF who made the Jug one of the deadliest ground attack aircraft of the war. No question about that.

 

[DrumBob]

I too was surprised that the P-47 could out turn the FW190 at nearly all altitudes. And this test should not be affected by the combat experience (or lack thereof) of the two pilots. Never would've guessed. Also, was a surprised at the climb difference and that the P-47 could catch up and pass the 190. Though if a FW190 was on your tail, going into a climb in a P-47 would not be advised as the 190 would close quickly and get the shot. That's where you'd point the Jug to the ground and fall out of the sky like a brick.

Really. There weren't many aircraft that could out dive a 47.

 

[Clayton Magnet]

I suspect the FW190 was pretty dated by the time the test was completed (shipment time to US, etc).

Depending which report you look at, it was a converted fighter bomber, as well as potentially having a rough running engine. I think during the Navy test the BMW inexplicably quit at one point, and seemed to have a vibration problem. This is of course, assuming that it was the same aircraft in both tests, which is probably likely.

In July of 1942, the RAF held a trial between a captured Fw 190A-3 and their shiny new Mk.IX Spitfire. At that time, the A-3 model could be considered as cutting edge-ish. Below 23000 feet, the Focke Wulf actually managed to keep pace whilst climbing, although the Spitfire was considered to be a slightly better climber. As far as maneuverability, the Focke Wulf was considered to be better than the Spitfire, except in turning circles.
I don't think a 1943 P-47 would be able to keep pace with a climbing Spitfire Mk.IX below 25000 feet, nor would it be able to out maneuver one, with the exception of slight roll advantage (P-47 will out roll a Mk.IX, but only above 300mph, whereas a clipped wing Spitfire will out roll a P-47)
So while the results of the test in the original post are interesting, I don't think they reflect a contemporaneous match up. Above 25000', however, the P-47 will start to pull away from pretty much everything.

Edit: Further research indicates that the aircraft used in the US trials was a G-3, W.Nr.160057 with ballast added to the wings. an A-5 or A-6 would have presented a better air-to-air comparison for late 1943

 

[ssnider]

a report from the tech section on this forum.

 

[Navalwarrior]

The date of the tests was not provided. But since the P-47 had water injection I assume it was late 1943 at earliest.

In the same book I read of where a P-47 engaged a bunch of FW-190's all by himself. He used water injection and although hit a number of times did finally succeed in escaping into the clouds and making it home.

Depending which report you look at, it was a converted fighter bomber, as well as potentially having a rough running engine. I think during the Navy test the BMW inexplicably quit at one point, and seemed to have a vibration problem. This is of course, assuming that it was the same aircraft in both tests, which is probably likely.

In July of 1942, the RAF held a trial between a captured Fw 190A-3 and their shiny new Mk.IX Spitfire. At that time, the A-3 model could be considered as cutting edge-ish. Below 23000 feet, the Focke Wulf actually managed to keep pace whilst climbing, although the Spitfire was considered to be a slightly better climber. As far as maneuverability, the Focke Wulf was considered to be better than the Spitfire, except in turning circles.
I don't think a 1943 P-47 would be able to keep pace with a climbing Spitfire Mk.IX below 25000 feet, nor would it be able to out maneuver one, with the exception of slight roll advantage (P-47 will out roll a Mk.IX, but only above 300mph, whereas a clipped wing Spitfire will out roll a P-47)
So while the results of the test in the original post are interesting, I don't think they reflect a contemporaneous match up. Above 25000', however, the P-47 will start to pull away from pretty much everything.

Edit: Further research indicates that the aircraft used in the US trials was a G-3, W.Nr.160057 with ballast added to the wings. an A-5 or A-6 would have presented a better air-to-air comparison for late 1943

Resp:
Agree. I am amazed that the initial test occurred 'in country' (Italy, Dec 1943) by the USAAF. The US Navy performed a similar test in early 1944 (I believe it was Jan, but I may be incorrect). It too was well below below the altitudes normally flown in the ETO. Not sure what the normal altitudes flown were over Italy, but it does seem like the tests didn't reflect where the FW-190 was most formidable.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

It too was well below below the altitudes normally flown in the ETO. Not sure what the normal altitudes flown were over Italy

Other than protecting or attacking heavy bombers and the occasional high altitude photorecon, wasn't most combat in Italy low to medium altitude tactical work? Maybe not to be judged by 8th AF standards. I mean, didn't Alison powered dive bombers score over a hundred kills in a relatively small area and time period?

 

[MIflyer]

After the Alies grabbed the lower half of Italy the 15th AF launched high altitude daylight bombing raids on Europe, including into Germany. They found that they had to add an extra flight of fighters onto the formation to keep the German fighters from trying to draw off the escort while still over Northern Italy. The extra flight engaged German fighters in that area but did not fly the whole mission. So by late 1943 there were high altitude escorted long range heavy bombing missions flying out of Southern Italy..

 

[Navalwarrior]

Other than protecting or attacking heavy bombers and the occasional high altitude photorecon, wasn't most combat in Italy low to medium altitude tactical work? Maybe not to be judged by 8th AF standards. I mean, didn't Alison powered dive bombers score over a hundred kills in a relatively small area and time period?

Resp:
My thoughts also. Every air combat action I've read (doesn't prove anything) never mentioned going to extreme altitudes. A friend's dad (who died in 2019) flew B-17s in Italy from late 1944 to the end of the war. He brought home his chart briefcase, which I have been promised . . . that has his notes/details of his missions. He did mention in an email to me that they often bombed at 14,000 with a few as high as 18,000 feet. I am guessing that their altitude depended on the visibility that day. RAF Spitfire's normally provided initial escorts of his flights north.

 

[eagledad]

Gentlemen,

With all due respect, I believe that the 15th AF bombed from altitudes that were comparable to the altitudes flown by 8th AF bombers. My uncle was a ball turret gunner on a B-17 from the 816th Squadron, 483rd Bomb group from August 19th, 1944 through November 4th, 1944 (end of tour and home!). According to his diary, the altitudes that the squadron bombed from were between 18000 feet (lowest) and a high of 30000 feet, with the average altitude for his 31 missions around 26000 feet. Two of his missions were under 20000 feet and two of his missions were from 30000 feet.

FWIW

Eagledad

 

[CORSNING]

HI guys, I have a question. A few years ago I put together a timeline for
the P-47. My question is, when did Republic begin installation of the
water injection system to the Thunderbolt on the production line?
Dean states in AHT on page 289 that the D-20RE in November 1943
is the first. On the 368thfitergroup.com site under the heading ' The
Republic P-47 Thunderbolt, "The Big Beautiful Jug", it is listed that the
D-4-RA and D-5-RE were the first.
I know somebody here has that answer. Please list source if you have
an answer.
Thanks in advance, Jeff

 

[eagledad]

HI guys, I have a question. A few years ago I put together a timeline for
the P-47. My question is, when did Republic begin installation of the
water injection system to the Thunderbolt on the production line?
Dean states in AHT on page 289 that the D-20RE in November 1943
is the first. On the 368thfitergroup.com site under the heading ' The
Republic P-47 Thunderbolt, "The Big Beautiful Jug", it is listed that the
D-4-RA and D-5-RE were the first.
I know somebody here has that answer. Please list source if you have
an answer.
Thanks in advance, Jeff

Jeff

It appears that the first P-47's equipped with factory installed water injection were the P-47D-11.

Sources: Republic Thunderbolt by Roger Freeman p62
USAAF Fighters of World War Two by Michael O'Leary p272

Eagledad

 

[CORSNING]

Excellent, thank you for the reply eagledad.
Would your sources give dates for when the D-4-RA, D-10-RE, D-11-RE & D-23-RE became operational?
Now I'm digging, Jeff

 

[eagledad]

Hi Jeff

After looking at my sources, none of them have any dates as to when the different models entered operations. If I make some assumptions and match production numbers by type to total monthly P-47 acceptances by the Air Force, it looks like the first D-4's may have been accepted in July of 1943, D-10's in August, and D-11's in September. The first D-23's may have been accepted in March of 1944. Does anyone have an idea of how long it took from acceptance to operations?

Eagledad

Sources : Republic Thunderbolt by Roger Freeman
Army Air Force Statistical Digest
Major assumptions: the Air accepted the production in block number sequence, and Republic finished and delivered one block before production and delivery of the next.

 

[Stig1207]

The 325th FG was the only 15th AAF unit to fly P-47's escorting the heavy bombers into southern Europe, and they converted to P-51's in the spring of '44. All other P-47 units in the MTO were with the tactical 12th AAF. So very high alt missions were probably not the norm for P-47's in the MTO.

 

[Navalwarrior]

The 325th FG was the only 15th AAF unit to fly P-47's escorting the heavy bombers into southern Europe, and they converted to P-51's in the spring of '44. All other P-47 units in the MTO were with the tactical 12th AAF. So very high alt missions were probably not the norm for P-47's in the MTO.

Resp:
Well said. Different missions involved different altitudes. I wonder however, if high altitude bombing of Germany in the last months of 1945 was flown at somewhat lower altitudes.