Soren has stated several times in this thread that 109 was superior to the 51...
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
I don't think any were really saying it was inferior, I prefer not to get into discussions about performance, unless there was a big difference then other factors were more important. The Hurricane was inferior in almost all respects to the 109 but did its job perfectly adequately in 1940 despite being approx 30 MPH slower.
The P51 didn't have to be superior, it just had to be there, even an Me262 could not press home an accurate attack in the presence of an escort. The P51 couldn't catch it except when landing but the 262 couldnt slow down while attacking bombers either. Similarly with LW prop fighters the extra armour carried to protect from bombers return fire hampered them in combat with escorts. From what I have read if an escort and a defender get locked in combat then neither are doing their job. The escorts job is to stay with the bombers and prevent attacks not get involved in 1 on 1 combat. Similarly the defenders job is to attack the bombers or "escort" those attacking the bombers.
Later tactics by the USA where the P51s and others actually hunted down the LW in front of the bomber stream and at their bases were unusual and reflected the massive numerical superiority that the allies had. The LW would have liked to do the same in the BoB but they simply didn't have the numbers to do it.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, as I said I prefer not to get into detailed discussion, history proves that all aircraft mentioned scored kills on all the others. Height, experience and seeing the enemy first trump almost any performance difference even on a 262.Soren has stated several times in this thread that 109 was superior to the 51...
One thing all these aircraft had over the P 51 was availability at altitude prior to 1943 and 1944 for the P 51D. Speaking as a Brit we needed to stop raids on UK in 1940 not 1943. The 109s record of being a LW front line fighter from before the start to the end counts for a lot in my book. The P51 was exceptionally good at something the US desperately needed a good plane for, long range escort missions. However it won by weight of allied numbers not by individual performance. To perform deep penetration raids a bomber group needed four waves of escorts many of which were P47s or others and by the time the P51D was arriving in Europe the Germans had the Me262. I am not dissing the P51, just sayin'.
I think you need to read drgondog's well thought out (and supported) post of 9 years ago in this thread. Clearly it (the P-51) did not "win by weight of allied numbers not by individual performance". I don't mean to be snarky but your statements go totally contrary to his analysis of the facts he posted above. The P-51D didn't arrive in theater until the Germans had the 262? Really?
Thanks Flyboy, an individual aircraft or even a squadron makes no difference to either side neither does a couple of weeks, they went in service at about the same time but not in the same numbers which was what mattered.For what it's worth, the Me 262 started flying operational sorties in June/ July 1944 and it was still being operated by a test and evaluation squadron(Jäger Erprobungskommando Thierfelder). The P-51D began to arrive in Europe in quantity in March of 1944 with the 55th FG being the first unit to receive it. I believe they fully converted to the P-51D in July of 1944
None taken, the point is that the LW got the 262 at about the same time as the P51D but the 262 never ever became operational in the true sense, problems with engines, fuel, pilots accidents and combat losses meant the US never faced hundreds let alone thousands defending Germany, I think I have read on here that it was more normally less than 50.Alright, I stand corrected on the 262, no offense meant.
As I said comparison of individual planes performance is of limited value, however superior a LW plane was or wasnt they didnt have the numbers to make a difference. Things like rate of climb may matter for the LW getting up to fight but the P51 had been up there for hours before they met (as an example)I think that is important to remeber that Messer 109 K4 entered in service is very small numbers, probably the comparison of P-51D is more logical against a G-10 or g-14 variant.
As I said comparison of individual planes performance is of limited value, however superior a LW plane was or wasnt they didnt have the numbers to make a difference. Things like rate of climb may matter for the LW getting up to fight but the P51 had been up there for hours before they met (as an example)
Soren was also a bit unstable hence he's no longer around...Soren has stated several times in this thread that 109 was superior to the 51...
Soren was also a bit unstable hence he's no longer around...
After reading some of his comments in the older threads I'd say there is much truth in this statement...
That doesn't follow. By the time the P-51D showed up the LW was already attritioned to death, training had been cut years earlier, fuel was in short supply, production was done by slave labor and quality was poor, and there was a lot more allied aircraft, while Germany was bombed to pieces. So even if the P-51 was inferior the overall strategic situation meant that the better trained US pilots in overwhelming numbers simply swamped the remnants of the LW until it finally died.Had the 109 been so much better performer than the P-51 (and by extension better than Spit IX, P-47, P-38 ), the occupied Europe would've been littered with downed P-51s, and we know that was not the case.
That doesn't follow. By the time the P-51D showed up the LW was already attritioned to death, training had been cut years earlier, fuel was in short supply, production was done by slave labor and quality was poor, and there was a lot more allied aircraft, while Germany was bombed to pieces. So even if the P-51 was inferior the overall strategic situation meant that the better trained US pilots in overwhelming numbers simply swamped the remnants of the LW until it finally died.