Soren has stated several times in this thread that 109 was superior to the 51...
P-51's vs. Me-109's and Fw-190's
- Thread starter DAVIDICUS
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Soren has stated several times in this thread that 109 was superior to the 51...
There were some times when 109 was superior, on some instances the P-51 was superior. Eg. prior late 1943, the 109 was better not just in climb, but also in speed, bar lower altitudes. The P-51A and subsequent were offering far better range/radius than 109 can offer.
Once with Packard Merlin aboard, the P-51 was faster, coupled with generous fuel carried it was the right aircraft at the right place and time.
Had the 109 been so much better performer than the P-51 (and by extension better than Spit IX, P-47, P-38 ), the occupied Europe would've been littered with downed P-51s, and we know that was not the case.
We might consider the 109 and P-51 swithcing places. The P-51 would do well in Luftwaffe service (blunt the P-47s and P-38s, plus RAF and VVS), while the Bf 109 would not be able to escort USAF bombers, be it against European or Japanese targets, at distances of 650 miles and beyond.
Once with Packard Merlin aboard, the P-51 was faster, coupled with generous fuel carried it was the right aircraft at the right place and time.
Had the 109 been so much better performer than the P-51 (and by extension better than Spit IX, P-47, P-38 ), the occupied Europe would've been littered with downed P-51s, and we know that was not the case.
We might consider the 109 and P-51 swithcing places. The P-51 would do well in Luftwaffe service (blunt the P-47s and P-38s, plus RAF and VVS), while the Bf 109 would not be able to escort USAF bombers, be it against European or Japanese targets, at distances of 650 miles and beyond.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, as I said I prefer not to get into detailed discussion, history proves that all aircraft mentioned scored kills on all the others. Height, experience and seeing the enemy first trump almost any performance difference even on a 262.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
I think you need to read drgondog's well thought out (and supported) post of 9 years ago in this thread. Clearly it (the P-51) did not "win by weight of allied numbers not by individual performance". I don't mean to be snarky but your statements go totally contrary to his analysis of the facts he posted above. The P-51D didn't arrive in theater until the Germans had the 262? Really?
I did read it, drgondogs posts are(were?) excellent, to support a long range mission needed 4 waves of fighters to get to the target and back plus I believe there were additional withdrawal flights to bring in stragglers. That requires massive numbers of fighters and pilots and fantastic logistics and administration to avoid cock-ups. The P51 was used to escort bombers to and from Germany on deep penetration raids to Germany but an individual aircraft could not do it it was an operation by the whole of the allied military, at maximum effort the RAF was used too. The US always had numbers on their side because they chose the point of attack which gives the LW far more area to defend than they had aircraft pilots and fuel to do.
The P51s record as an escort fighter speaks for itself, it was the best. Its position as best prop driven fighter can be argued it was certainly up there with the best, its position as best fighter as an individual aircraft after the 262 was introduced cannot be argued (apart from range) but it didnt matter, there were enough P51s (and other allies in recaptured Europe) to chase the 262 all the way back to base.
from wiki re 262
On 19 April 1944, Erprobungskommando 262 was formed at Lechfeld just south of Augsburg, as a test unit (Jäger Erprobungskommando Thierfelder, commanded by Hauptmann Werner Thierfelder)[3][35] to introduce the 262 into service and train a corps of pilots to fly it. On 26 July 1944, Leutnant Alfred Schreiber with the 262 A-1a W.Nr. 130 017 damaged a Mosquito reconnaissance aircraft of No. 540 Squadron RAF PR Squadron, which was allegedly lost in a crash upon landing at an air base in Italy.[36] Other sources state the aircraft was damaged during evasive manoeuvres and escaped.[37]
from wiki re P51B/C/D
P-51Bs and P-51Cs started to arrive in England in August and October 1943. The P-51B/P-51C versions were sent to 15 fighter groups that were part of the 8th and 9th Air Forces in Englandand the 12th and 15th in Italy (the southern part of Italy was under Allied control by late 1943). Other deployments included the China Burma India Theater (CBI).
The P-51D/P-51K started arriving in Europe in mid-1944 and quickly became the primary USAAF fighter in the theater. It was produced in larger numbers than any other Mustang variant. Nevertheless, by the end of the war, roughly half of all operational Mustangs were still P-51B or P-51C models.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
For what it's worth, the Me 262 started flying operational sorties in June/ July 1944 and it was still being operated by a test and evaluation squadron(Jäger Erprobungskommando Thierfelder). The P-51D began to arrive in Europe in quantity in March of 1944 with the 55th FG being the first unit to receive it. I believe they fully converted to the P-51D in July of 1944
Thanks Flyboy, an individual aircraft or even a squadron makes no difference to either side neither does a couple of weeks, they went in service at about the same time but not in the same numbers which was what mattered.
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
I think that is important to remeber that Messer 109 K4 entered in service is very small numbers, probably the comparison of P-51D is more logical against a G-10 or g-14 variant.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Alright, I stand corrected on the 262, no offense meant. Perhaps I read your post wrong as well, I took you to mean the 51D coming in theater way later than it did, my bad. Reading 101 for me.
*edited because 'reasons'.
*edited because 'reasons'.
None taken, the point is that the LW got the 262 at about the same time as the P51D but the 262 never ever became operational in the true sense, problems with engines, fuel, pilots accidents and combat losses meant the US never faced hundreds let alone thousands defending Germany, I think I have read on here that it was more normally less than 50.
As I said comparison of individual planes performance is of limited value, however superior a LW plane was or wasnt they didnt have the numbers to make a difference. Things like rate of climb may matter for the LW getting up to fight but the P51 had been up there for hours before they met (as an example)
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Indeed, in the massive allied air superiority context attained by P-51, 47, etc on 1944 and 1945 you can hardly obtain a definitive way to validate the peformances of some german planes.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Soren was also a bit unstable hence he's no longer around...
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
After reading some of his comments in the older threads I'd say there is much truth in this statement...
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Not denying that Soren was knowledgeable and did make valid points. He was also wildly biased and tried to argue with documented evidence. You have 10 years worth of posts to go though to see this.
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
That doesn't follow. By the time the P-51D showed up the LW was already attritioned to death, training had been cut years earlier, fuel was in short supply, production was done by slave labor and quality was poor, and there was a lot more allied aircraft, while Germany was bombed to pieces. So even if the P-51 was inferior the overall strategic situation meant that the better trained US pilots in overwhelming numbers simply swamped the remnants of the LW until it finally died.
Also all true, but again this is no indication that the 51 was inferior or superior to the German fighters...
Balljoint
Senior Airman
A few background points working against the Me-109 include Hitler's decision to rely on FLAK rather than LW interceptors, Doolittle's decision to release the P-51 and other escorts from close bomber escort to wider ranging LW hunting, the mission of the interceptor to engage the bombers and avoid the defending escorts and, as has been mentioned, the need for weighty armor on interceptors.
