pathchampion
Recruit
- 6
- Jul 6, 2006
but, I could imagine that i wouldnt be fun for a US pilot in a P-51 to go "one on one" against Erich Hartmann in a Me-109 K4 or Gerhar Barkhorn in his Fw-90 D9
P-51's vs. Me-109's and Fw-190's
- Thread starter DAVIDICUS
- Start date
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Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Put Hartmann in the P-51 and Pretty in the K-4.... Johnson in the D-9 and Barkhorn in the 47-M.
Parmigiano
Senior Airman
.... and Goldrake in his robot and Ed Striker in the SHADO UFO Skydiver...
drgondog
Major
I think I'd rather have Pretty in the K-4 and chase her with Preddy in the 51..
I would like to take one moment to dissect the numerical advantage discussion. First let's take the 8th AF at three Points in time.
Jan1 1943 - zero operational fighter wings (except 4th with SpitV) as everybody basically left for Afrika and the RAF had to provide escort. Huge Luftwaffe advantage over German targets (as in zero Allied Fighters escorting B-17s and B-24s to Germany)
Jan1 1944 - One Mustang FG (354th on TDY from 9th) but two P-38 wings capable of escorting to German targets but Allison engines/turbo issues and compressibility issues reduced numbers of 38s over target and reduced combat effectiveness - huge advantage of LW Fighter Arm over USAAF at the target... all escorted targets were well short of Berlin, Regensburg and Munich putting aircraft and Petoleum out of reach for escorts.
Jan1 1945 - 14 Mustang Wings/one P-47 wing capable of escorting heavy bombers to any occupied target in Europe, RAF and 9th AF capable of supporting Strategic air and the combined 12th and 15th about on par with 8th in total capability. Daily raids of 1500-2000 bombers and 1100 to 1500 USAAF Mustangs resulting in complete numerical superiority against the LW.
How did this happen?
One view is this:
Jan11, 1944 the 354FG on loan from 9th AF, Mid Feb the 357FG comes on line, late Feb/early March the 4th and 355th FG come on line and finally in April the 352FG receives its Mustangs.
USAAF puts at first maybe 40-50 Mustangs in the air per group to cover Deep Bomber penetrations over the target by end of Jan, resulting in a growth to 100 available at the end of Feb, 200 available at the end of March and 250 at the end of April
Forget the fact that 'effectives' were averaging 65-70% of launch due to mechanical problems of the new Mustang during those months.
8th AF had about 30 BG's growing to 40 with 2/3 B-17s and 1/3 B-24s.
1, then 2, then 4, then 5 Mustang wings incl 9th AF available to escort 30+ BW to, over and from target until P-47 range enabled them to take over
Each BD of the 3 would be able to compress 10 BG (at most) into a 40 mile track- each Bomb Division would have either one (or none) P-51 groups to support them over target until end of March, then maximum of two per Division until June - This is fact of life during raids to Leipzig, Regensburg, Berlin, Merseburg, Augsburg, Posnan, Munich, Stettin etc fro the period Jan11, 1944 through April 30, 1944. Three P-38 wings were also operational so boost the 'possible' American Fighter presence over those target to three wings to cover 7-10 bomb groups per division.
The Luftwaffe could easily bring to bear 300 fighters on any single point of the bomber stream in that time frame and never be opposed by more than 30-40 Mustangs at most.
Would you agree that the Luftwaffe in this case had not only local air superiority at any point of the bomber stream but also approx parity w/escorts capable of reaching the target?
But the 109s and 190s and 110s and the 410s were slaughtered, losing so much of the experienced s/e fighter pilots but also even harder to replace t/e crews that could no longer survive in the same airspace with Mustangs - even helping the RAF the following night!
My point has always been that a small but extremely effective force (hate to use this term) broke the back of the LW day fighter arm in Germany - REQUIRING drawdown from Ost Front to try to stem the tide. Breaking Back to me means killing far more experienced and talented German pilots than the Training Arm could replace - necessitating Bomber and Transport pilots being pressed into service creating a graveyard spiral.
So, did USAAF 8th FC have 'overwhelming' numerical superiority? No, not when these events took place - a single fighter so often praised as The Greatest" wasn't the Greatest - it simply was the best at the altitudes that the LW was forced to compete.
And to answer the question posed in this thread "Better than the 190 and the 109?"
Yes
There were better performance versions that came after the Fw190A6 and the Me109G6 - but those two a/c were simply inferior to the P-51B at 25,000 feet and proved it against competent and experienced LW pilots over the deepest targets in Occupied Europe.. Not the P-47, or P-38 or the Spitfire or Tempest - the Mustang..
And then it roamed at will from Strauburg east of Berlin to the airfields at Oberpfaffenhofen and Landsburg around Munich - there was no place to assemble freely, no place safe for flight schools or moving rolling stock across Germany. LW couldn't defend Munich to the south, or Stettin and Posnan to the east.
Long winded but the Luftwaffe was tough and smart - even in later stages of war they were able to 'outnumber' the USAAF at the point of attack up through the Bulge - but by then the overall numerical and experience advantage was too far in the balance of the Allies for their efforts to make a difference - except to the crews they shot down that day.
But not in the first five months of 1944 when the Luftwaffe lost control of the air.
Regards,
Bill - often wrong but rarely uncertain
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Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
Um....I can't find any pilots under the name of George Pretty. Only George Preddy.
Do you mean George Preddy chasing George Preddy?
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Ive been watchin this little story with great amusement... Atleast Bill was able to point it out.... The original poster, madmax, wrote Pretty and it kept on going.... It is infact George Preddy...
Nice one Bill..
Nice one Bill..
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I been trying to watch the hockey game and read this.....
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Good first period, lots of bangin bodies....
My kind of hockey...
My kind of hockey...
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Yep - too bad about Pronger, I don't think he should of been suspended but if the Ducks are real Stanley Cup caliber, they don't need him...
drgondog
Major
I'm breathlessly awaiting the famous "Long winded, High Pompous Factor" Award for that post but I just couldn't hold it back on "Pretty". She was a fox, survived the Preddy engaement and I think I might have had her back in the early 60s (40ish aint all that bad to a punk teenager)
Regards,
Bill
Regards,
Bill
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Pronger getting suspended was a joke, one of the reasons why the NHL sucks @ss....
Bill, ur crackin me up...
Bill, ur crackin me up...
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
I'm watching the NBC version Pierre maguire between the benches is great . Oh yeah Ottawa is a winey bunch pretending its Canadas team well that just aint true . Pronger got hosed
Galland: I had been telling Hitler for over a year, since my first flight in an Me-262, that only Focke Wulf Fw-190 fighter production should continue in conventional aircraft, to discontinue the Me-109, which was outdated, and to focus on building a massive jet-fighter force.
(the 109 G/K whatever was obsolete)
A 1994 WWII Magazine Interview
The 109 G/k could barely go much faster then 400 mph/850 Kph
OK maybe 430, with decent gas..not on 87 octane coal syn
anyway, I will go with the Galland opinion..
and the 190 did not have the altitude, hence the Ta152
The manueverabilty was not the thing , if so the 262 would never have been built..
I mean at 90 mph/ 150kph the Fokker D-7 had better manueverability than an F-15. But, I know which one I would rather fight in today's world.. even with the same guns.
same goes for a 109..
and yeah, I am a fan of the 109 190..
I gather the pilots loved the 109.. but we all know which one was harder to kill. (Take Hartman as an example)
Mebbe I should have read the whole thread before jumping in with my big mouth..
After a while the US quit building the P40..
As far as LW pilots 44-45
There were more 262's than experienced pilots.
(the 109 G/K whatever was obsolete)
A 1994 WWII Magazine Interview
The 109 G/k could barely go much faster then 400 mph/850 Kph
OK maybe 430, with decent gas..not on 87 octane coal syn
anyway, I will go with the Galland opinion..
and the 190 did not have the altitude, hence the Ta152
The manueverabilty was not the thing , if so the 262 would never have been built..
I mean at 90 mph/ 150kph the Fokker D-7 had better manueverability than an F-15. But, I know which one I would rather fight in today's world.. even with the same guns.
same goes for a 109..
and yeah, I am a fan of the 109 190..
I gather the pilots loved the 109.. but we all know which one was harder to kill. (Take Hartman as an example)
Mebbe I should have read the whole thread before jumping in with my big mouth..
After a while the US quit building the P40..
As far as LW pilots 44-45
There were more 262's than experienced pilots.
The P-51 was designed as a replacement for the P-40 even down to the requirements for the use of the same engine and prop. The merlin and extra fuel came later and worked out exceptionaly well.
I agree it was no wonder plane but it was every bit as good as the Bf-109 and with a better pilot compettitive with the Fw-190. This was proven many times in combat.
wmaxt[/QUOTE]
I agree. I think many people go way overboard the other way when it comes to the P-51. Yes, the P-51 has been somewhat overrated by the history books, but to say the 109 or the 190 were better fighters I think is just flat out wrong. Were there SOME performance aspects where they were better, sure, but to say that OVERALL either were better fighters...I'm not buying it...
I believe you overrate the 109 as much or more than you claim the P-51 is overrated....
The 47 was at least the 51's equal in what regard? I don't recall it being the 51's equal or superior in anything other than diving or ruggedness...
One thing all these aircraft had over the P 51 was availability at altitude prior to 1943 and 1944 for the P 51D. Speaking as a Brit we needed to stop raids on UK in 1940 not 1943. The 109s record of being a LW front line fighter from before the start to the end counts for a lot in my book. The P51 was exceptionally good at something the US desperately needed a good plane for, long range escort missions. However it won by weight of allied numbers not by individual performance. To perform deep penetration raids a bomber group needed four waves of escorts many of which were P47s or others and by the time the P51D was arriving in Europe the Germans had the Me262. I am not dissing the P51, just sayin'.
I don't disagree with anything you said, however, the 51 wasn't as inferior as a combat fighter as some in this thread have claimed, and in some cases, it was superior...in other words, it could hold its own against anything the Germans had except for the 262...
I don't think any were really saying it was inferior, I prefer not to get into discussions about performance, unless there was a big difference then other factors were more important. The Hurricane was inferior in almost all respects to the 109 but did its job perfectly adequately in 1940 despite being approx 30 MPH slower.
The P51 didn't have to be superior, it just had to be there, even an Me262 could not press home an accurate attack in the presence of an escort. The P51 couldn't catch it except when landing but the 262 couldnt slow down while attacking bombers either. Similarly with LW prop fighters the extra armour carried to protect from bombers return fire hampered them in combat with escorts. From what I have read if an escort and a defender get locked in combat then neither are doing their job. The escorts job is to stay with the bombers and prevent attacks not get involved in 1 on 1 combat. Similarly the defenders job is to attack the bombers or "escort" those attacking the bombers.
Later tactics by the USA where the P51s and others actually hunted down the LW in front of the bomber stream and at their bases were unusual and reflected the massive numerical superiority that the allies had. The LW would have liked to do the same in the BoB but they simply didn't have the numbers to do it.
