wuzak
Captain
What about the German resources that developing the Me 264 would have chewed up?
The US could better afford using resources to defend its coast than the Germans could attacking it.
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Nevertheless having the capacity to attack the USA I believe should have been a priority since US entry into war was inevitable and it would tie up significant US resources and the development of the Me 264/6m (with 6 jumo 211) resolves many problems. The US was already developing aircraft such as the B19 and B36 to do this before any German efforts.
The Me264 was to be a strategic bomber from the start. The RLM's interest in it being an "Amerika bomber" came about in '42 with the idea of having it built with six engines.
The long-range recon role came about when the Kreigsmarine considered the 264 as a replacement for the Fw200.
The B-36 had a 10,000 mile range cruising at 230mph, its six R-4360s running for over 43 hours. The B-36 also had provisions for a 'relief crew,' unlike the Me-264. The R-4360 was a generation advanced over the BMW-801.
The Germans did have a number of indigenous navigation aids, none of which were any good on the western side of the atlantic unless deployed on buoys or ships.
The Germans did have a number of smart bombs and guidance systems. Only a few of which made it into service in any numbers or at a time when they could have been used against the US (before late 1944 or 1945).
Most or all of the smart bombs/missiles required outside stowage (to big to fit in bomb bay) which plays havoc with cruise speeds and range.
The US was already using up a fair amount of resources in defence of the coast, like shore batteries, AA guns, coastal patrol by both ships and planes. It is possible for a U-Boat to place a radio navigation buoy of the coast of the US, it is also possible for the US defences to sink such a U-boat.
Is the U-boat better employed attacking shipping or trying to place radio navigation buoys?
How long will a radio Navigation buoy last? and how accurate is it's location? Coastal waters off the US coast can be a lot deeper than the North sea (or the same depth, depends on location) but hundreds of feet of anchor line can mean some drift as currant/winds change. Not to mention the US might take a dim view of a radio beacon and send planes/ships to investigate and eliminate it. How many days/ missions is each buoy good for?
Celestial navigation for buoy placement only works on clear nights. Unless buoy is placed on clear night and only activated upon radio signal from approaching aircraft to begin transmitting several days later?
Sounds like the Germans would be tying up a considerable amount of resources too. Americans weren't totally stupid, they knew where the likely targets were and the likely approaches.
IIRC EGONs were range limited same way as Oboe, so not much help for putting buoys in right places in the middle of the Atlantic. And the Atlantic is very deep and besides winds it has strong currents, how to keep the buoys in the right place? U-boats could place then fairly accurately but when? If they got their orders when leaving their harbours, there was a great risk that timing would have gone wrong, weather, technical difficulties, Allies bombing raids might well disturb the attack timetable and so the buoys would have drifted away from their right positions. U-boats could of course sent the signals themselves, but that would be risky. If they were given the release time for the buoys by radio, IMHO the probably way, there is a possibility that Enigma would give away the attack times of the follow-up raids. At the first time British would probably have been puzzled but after the first raid guessed the connection and so the next orders might well have been early warnings of impending attacks.
So none of these weapon systems were ready for use when red flags were raised over the Reichstag, less so for 1944 attacks against US. And as I wrote earlier, we don't know the real performance and handling of a fully equipped and armed Me 264. IIRC RLM thought that Messerschmitt tended to give over-optimistic performance estimates and that those of Focke-Wulf were usually more realistic.
We should also keep in mind that the USN had active carriers in the Atlantic, especially in the convoy lanes.
So the chance of intercept does not only lie within range of the North American coastline.
You'd be seeing the F6F-3N going to the Atlantic along with the creation of radar pickets ala' Okinawa but a few months earlier.
What about the German resources that developing the Me 264 would have chewed up?
The US could better afford using resources to defend its coast than the Germans could attacking it.
I don't think you realize just how many escort carriers the U. S. Navy had, 40 +/- Bogue class and 19 Casablanca class in commission (out of 122 total all escort carrier classes) by the end of 1943 alone.They would be withdrawn into a defensive posture and their position would be known.
and Iceland. Not sure when Greenland got bases.There was also Bermuda, which had a joint Royal Navy and Royal Canadian Navy base, US Navy base, RAF and USAAF bases.
I think that between the bases on Bermuda and on Newfoundland, the route to the US coastline from France becomes a very narrow option.and Iceland. Not sure when Greenland got bases.
It would be interesting to see the reliability of any recip engine after sorties of 40-48 hours. Plus a max power run at the 20 something hour point. There is doing things on paper, and there is doing them for real. I'm not saying it was impossible, just it was going to a bit of a stretch with minimum margins for safety.
Cheers,
Biff
The Germans did have a number of indigenous navigation aids, none of which were any good on the western side of the atlantic unless deployed on buoys or ships.
The Germans did have a number of smart bombs and guidance systems. Only a few of which made it into service in any numbers or at a time when they could have been used against the US (before late 1944 or 1945).
Most or all of the smart bombs/missiles required outside stowage (to big to fit in bomb bay) which plays havoc with cruise speeds and range.
The US was already using up a fair amount of resources in defence of the coast, like shore batteries, AA guns, coastal patrol by both ships and planes. It is possible for a U-Boat to place a radio navigation buoy of the coast of the US, it is also possible for the US defences to sink such a U-boat.
Is the U-boat better employed attacking shipping or trying to place radio navigation buoys?
How long will a radio Navigation buoy last? and how accurate is it's location? Coastal waters off the US coast can be a lot deeper than the North sea (or the same depth, depends on location) but hundreds of feet of anchor line can mean some drift as currant/winds change. Not to mention the US might take a dim view of a radio beacon and send planes/ships to investigate and eliminate it. How many days/ missions is each buoy good for?
Celestial navigation for buoy placement only works on clear nights. Unless buoy is placed on clear night and only activated upon radio signal from approaching aircraft to begin transmitting several days later?
Sounds like the Germans would be tying up a considerable amount of resources too. Americans weren't totally stupid, they knew where the likely targets were and the likely approaches.
jmcalli2,
Yes, and those 4360s were starting production in 1944 (according to wiki) and had growing pains. And this from PW who had been engineering and producing large numbers of radials. While the 801 is a good engine, doing 40-48 hour sorties in 1943 is another. Also, where were the divert fields, how much drag penalty is there on having 1, 2 or 3 engines out. Lose an engine, continue, lose another may result in not having enough gas to get back (battle damage as well). Do you put U-Boats along the route, in listening mode for a Mayday calls? How many assets do you throw at something of questionable return?
This came up before, and I think the US would have contained it in a 6-12 month period between radar (picket ships or other) to offer GCI for fighters or P-61 type aircraft. Scenario, a city on the East coast gets hit. Scramble fighters and you may or may not get a successful intercept. Install radar (ship borne or otherwise), and you now have the ability to intercept them on the inbound and or the outbound leg. The end result is few if any now make a successful RTB. You can also make fighters optimized for bomber intercept over the US & Coastal waters. Less armor, optimized weapons, etc.
Use enigma and other spy systems to determine where they are launching from and destroy them on the ground. Yes, it would use resources that otherwise would have been for offensive devices but I think in the big scheme of things it would be almost negligible.
Cheers,
Biff
I'm recalling Frank Vann's biography of Willy Messerschmitt. It was clear the initial versions were to be used as long range reconnaissance aircraft and as couriers to connect Germany to the far east and maybe sth america. They were too underpowered, under armed and under armoured and short ranged (at 13000km). In the fullness of time they should develop into a 17000km range system using 2400hp DB603L or DB603H engines and remote controlled armament.
Id argue the point. Big doesn't mean sophisticated. The R-4360 may have been an engineering marvel but was not a commercial success suggesting it was also an inefficient weapon. Furthermore the path to long range was clear and it didn't involved piston engines. Unlike piston engines jet engines do no loose efficiency(become fuel inefficient) at high altitude or high speed. Jets can get long range by flying high, where there is little drag, using small, low parasitic drag wings with high lift devices for landing. The plan was to use jets to aid the Me 264's range and performance.
The BMW 801F was expected to achieve 2600hp and used lots of advanced technology such as vacuum cast heads.
The turbo charged versions the BMW801-TJ1, TJ2 and TQ had critical altitudes beyond any allied engine.
When the 18 cylinder BMW802 was cancelled the technology was put into a program known as the BMW801R: variable pitch cooling fan, 2 stage 4 speed supercharger, intercooler and after cooler. Intended for the Ta 152C but a likely candidate for the Me 264.
The 2800-3000hp Jumo 222E/F after a few years of development was ready enough to be scheduled for production in late 1944 and was also a candiate for developed Me 264.
Dont you think the B-36 is rather a dreadnaught or battleship? An impressive but vulnerable system, too many eggs in one basket. Early versions were slow and big targets for FLAK or the evolving SAM's.
I think the Germans had one over the horizon radio navigation systems good for a few 1000 km called sonnenstrahl or sunray. It was an electronically rotating 'talking becon' I can get a link. The allies used it as well and so when the Germans coded it the allies bombed the stations so the Germans stopped coding them and the allies left them alone. The US managed to create LORAN.
Buoys can be pre placed and timed to surface and transmit or be trigged.
Ground mapping radar is maybe the best way,
My assertion is that they could have had something ready by the end of 1943 and that US defences would be challenged.
They would be withdrawn into a defensive posture and their position would be known.
Think of the allied resources. The energy wasted in the ME 210, Ju 288 and He 177 program could have funded the Me 264 1.5 times over.
I'm recalling Frank Vann's biography of Willy Messerschmitt. It was clear the initial versions were to be used as long range reconnaissance aircraft and as couriers to connect Germany to the far east and maybe sth america. They were too underpowered, under armed and under armoured and short ranged (at 13000km). In the fullness of time they should develop into a 17000km range system using 2400hp DB603L or DB603H engines and remote controlled armament.
Id argue the point. Big doesn't mean sophisticated. The R-4360 may have been an engineering marvel but was not a commercial success suggesting it was also an inefficient weapon. Furthermore the path to long range was clear and it didn't involved piston engines. Unlike piston engines jet engines do no loose efficiency(become fuel inefficient) at high altitude or high speed. Jets can get long range by flying high, where there is little drag, using small, low parasitic drag wings with high lift devices for landing. The plan was to use jets to aid the Me 264's range and performance.
The BMW 801F was expected to achieve 2600hp and used lots of advanced technology such as vacuum cast heads.
The turbo charged versions the BMW801-TJ1, TJ2 and TQ had critical altitudes beyond any allied engine.
When the 18 cylinder BMW802 was cancelled the technology was put into a program known as the BMW801R: variable pitch cooling fan, 2 stage 4 speed supercharger, intercooler and after cooler. Intended for the Ta 152C but a likely candidate for the Me 264.
The 2800-3000hp Jumo 222E/F after a few years of development was ready enough to be scheduled for production in late 1944 and was also a candiate for developed Me 264.
Dont you think the B-36 is rather a dreadnaught or battleship? An impressive but vulnerable system, too many eggs in one basket. Early versions were slow and big targets for FLAK or the evolving SAM's.
I think the Germans had one over the horizon radio navigation systems good for a few 1000 km called sonnenstrahl or sunray. It was an electronically rotating 'talking becon' I can get a link. The allies used it as well and so when the Germans coded it the allies bombed the stations so the Germans stopped coding them and the allies left them alone. The US managed to create LORAN.
Buoys can be pre placed and timed to surface and transmit or be trigged.
Ground mapping radar is maybe the best way,
My assertion is that they could have had something ready by the end of 1943 and that US defences would be challenged.
They would be withdrawn into a defensive posture and their position would be known.
Think of the allied resources. The energy wasted in the ME 210, Ju 288 and He 177 program could have funded the Me 264 1.5 times over.
ANT-25 stayed in the air over 60 hours in several record flights in 1936-1937.
Tupolev ANT-25 - Wikipedia
Think of the allied resources. The energy wasted in the ME 210, Ju 288 and He 177 program could have funded the Me 264 1.5 times over.
I'm recalling Frank Vann's biography of Willy Messerschmitt. It was clear the initial versions were to be used as long range reconnaissance aircraft and as couriers to connect Germany to the far east and maybe sth america. They were too underpowered, under armed and under armoured and short ranged (at 13000km). In the fullness of time they should develop into a 17000km range system using 2400hp DB603L or DB603H engines and remote controlled armament.
The BMW 801F was expected to achieve 2600hp and used lots of advanced technology such as vacuum cast heads.
The turbo charged versions the BMW801-TJ1, TJ2 and TQ had critical altitudes beyond any allied engine.
When the 18 cylinder BMW802 was cancelled the technology was put into a program known as the BMW801R: variable pitch cooling fan, 2 stage 4 speed supercharger, intercooler and after cooler. Intended for the Ta 152C but a likely candidate for the Me 264.
The 2800-3000hp Jumo 222E/F after a few years of development was ready enough to be scheduled for production in late 1944 and was also a candiate for developed Me 264.
If the Me-264 had been flying and operational in 1940-41?