P40 in the BOB

[oldcrowcv63]

A&AEE tests:
Tomahawk II (AK176) 7,270 lb (84 gal fuel)
Tomahawk II (AK176) 7,646 lb (132 gal fuel)

Another trial gives a 'normal' weight of 7,372 lb in the CG diagram

Going by the serials you posted, this would appear to be a Tomahawk IIB

That appears to agree with AHT which lists the P-40C/Tomahawk IIB had a fuel capacity of 135 gal. down from the P-40B's 160 gal which was a reduction from the P-40's 180 gal tanks.

 

[davebender]

Luftwaffe was already outnumbered about two to one in fighter sorties over England. Adding a few P-40s to the mix won't make much difference unless Germany gets them (captured French aircraft?) to help even the odds.

 

[Airframes]

Eh?

 

[RCAFson]

A&AEE tests:
Tomahawk II (AK176) 7,270 lb (84 gal fuel)
Tomahawk II (AK176) 7,646 lb (132 gal fuel)

Another trial gives a 'normal' weight of 7,372 lb in the CG diagram

Going by the serials you posted, this would appear to be a Tomahawk IIB

Dunno if this is any help:

Data from The Secret years:
TOMAHAWK II serial AK176, engine:V-171D-C.15, test weight:7,300lb, Time to 20,000ft: 10.8min, climb rate:1,960fpm (upto 13500ft), Ceiling:31,400ft, Max speed:331 mph @ 15,500ft. Notes: Fully modified to British standards but no flame damper or air cleaner
Ak176 was recieved at Boscombe down in May 1941. The first Tomahawk received there was BK853 on Nov 13 1940.

Arriving in February, 1941. AH900 (mispainted as
AX900) had its guns harmonised with some difficulty as
considerable movement of the barrels occurred and
heating was insufficient; investigation continued at
Duxford. The replacement, AK160, was similarly armed
with two 0.5 in guns above the engine but four 0.30 in
guns in the wing (AH900 had 0.303 in wing guns).
AK 160's firing trials were acceptable, but a more rigid
mounting for the gunsight was required. AK 181 was
Intended for performance work, but damage after an
engine failure in March 1941 shortly after receipt, led to
replacement by AK 176 the following month. The latter
was fully modified for RAF use, but lacking flame
damping exhausts and an air cleaner; performance is at
table, based on overload fuel (130 gal including drop
tank). Take-off run without drop tank was a mere 215
yd, and range with drop tank 665 miles. Flame dampers
reduced top speed by 4 mph (true) and an air cleaner by
14 mph (true). Handling. including dives up to 440 mph
were satisfactory. and behaviour conventional at the stall
(77 mph flap and undercarriage down). The Stromberg/
Bendix carburellor found favour as the engine functioned
under negative g, but the need to depress the button on
the stick for 45 sec while raising the undercarriage was
criticised. AH797, regarded as a Mk II. was used to
examine the automatic. variable datum boost control; the
combat rating was found to creep over the permittled
figure of 40 in during tests starting in October 1941. Four
months earlier. AH785. a Mk I. started successful tests of
radio and F24 cameras (a second was added early in 1942)
for the Army co-operation role.

 

[swampyankee]

Joe Baugher's site has a summary of pireps from the RAF (RAF Mohawk), which all says very nice things about the P-36 handling. Don't underestimate the importance of handling in a fighter, especially good departure characteristics. Good handling and maneuverability are not mutually exclusive -- see the report on the P-36 -- and it will be much easier to get everything out of a good-handling aircraft than out of one with "quirks," like not giving warning before an accelerated stall.

 

[l'Omnivore Sobriquet]

Luftwaffe was already outnumbered about two to one in fighter sorties over England. Adding a few P-40s to the mix won't make much difference unless Germany gets them (captured French aircraft?) to help even the odds.

Well, actually it's the UK who got them. In my opinion (some distant reading), their very first 'Tomahawks'.
Those H.81 diverted to Uk in the last hour were busy during BoB being transformed to British standards, somewhere in the rear. Same reading had them being reserved for an eventual last effort in the ground attack role, once the invasion had begun. (and the type proved its worth in this employ, at least in AVG's hands in China. Would have given the jerries some sweat in summertime Anglia certainly.)
And it was (?) those same 'britishized' H.81s that formed the first RAF batches finally sent to North Africa, to gain some harsh glory there...

I wouldn't mind some confirmation/infirmation of it all, from you fast knowledgeable forum members...

[edit : sorry I always mix-up between Tomahawks and Kittyhawks, and I'm affraid i've done it again. I meant RAF's very first 'P-40's were actually French H.81 that never reached their primary owner. So, Kittyhawks I presume.
BTW the story probably stands for the enhanced H.75 that were on ships too when armistice was set, those good and fair 'P-36C's (i.e H.75-A4) that we French never touched and that became RAF's 'Mohawk's... Just guessing this time.
And not to worry, a later armistice might indeed have gotten those H.81 into German hands, instead of the right ones, so no problem with it all...]

[edit2 : Swampyankee the link you've posted on the Mohawk is a must-read.]

 

[oldcrowcv63]

their very first 'Tomahawks'.
Those H.81 diverted to Uk in the last hour were busy during BoB being transformed to British standards, somewhere in the rear.

Same reading had them being reserved for an eventual last effort in the ground attack role, once the invasion had begun. (and the type proved its worth in this employ, at least in AVG's hands in China. Would have given the jerries some sweat in summertime Anglia certainly.)
And it was (?) those same 'britishized' H.81s that formed the first RAF batches finally sent to North Africa, to gain some harsh glory there...

I wouldn't mind some confirmation/infirmation of it all, from you fast knowledgeable forum members...

The P-40 did indeed prove its worth in the ground attack role, in every theater as far as I can determine, but especially in the PTO, the western desert of North Africa and across the MTO.

[edit : sorry I always mix-up between Tomahawks and Kittyhawks, and I'm affraid i've done it again. I meant RAF's very first 'P-40's were actually French H.81 that never reached their primary owner. So, Kittyhawks I presume.

Nope, H81 is the Tomahawk I thru IIB equivalent to the P-40 thru P-40C

The Curtiss H87-A (or B) corresponds, early on, to the Kittyhawk I and IA which is roughly equivalent to the P-40D and E models. If you liked Joe Baugher's take on the P-36/H-75 you may want to visit:

Curtiss P-40 Warhawk, Tomahawk, Kittyhawk

BTW the story probably stands for the enhanced H.75 that were on ships too when armistice was set, those good and fair 'P-36C's (i.e H.75-A4) that we French never touched and that became RAF's 'Mohawk's... Just guessing this time.
And not to worry, a later armistice might indeed have gotten those H.81 into German hands, instead of the right ones, so no problem with it all...]

[edit2 : Swampyankee the link you've posted on the Mohawk is a must-read.]

AFAIK, you are correct about the Hawk 75s

 

[l'Omnivore Sobriquet]

Thank you Vieux Corbeau !

 

[H_K]

The Mohawks were really a missed opportunity IMHO. Not for the BoB, but for the Royal Navy.

I've always dreamt of the RAF handing those "surplus" airframes over to the FAA in summer '40... I'm sure they would have been welcomed with open arms! The Hawk had everything needed to make an excellent stop-gap carrier fighter:

- Long legs
- Good performance below 20,000ft (slightly better than Hurricane)
- Short take-off and landing (shorter than both the Hurricane and F4F)
- Compact dimensions (3-4ft shorter narrower than a Hurricane)
- Wide track undercarriage
- Radial engine

Most of all, those airframes were available in summer '40, a full year ahead of Sea Hurricane and most Wildcat deliveries to the FAA...

 

[redcoat]

Most of all, those airframes were available in summer '40, a full year ahead of Sea Hurricane and most Wildcat deliveries to the FAA...

The Wildcat holds the honour of being the only US fighter to be in operational service for the British during the Battle of Britain, the first 60 being received in July and August 1940, and were based at FAA airfields in Scotland during September and October (though they saw no combat).

ps: the USN didn't receive it's first Wildcat until December 1940 !!!!!!

 

[rochie]

Luftwaffe was already outnumbered about two to one in fighter sorties over England. Adding a few P-40s to the mix won't make much difference unless Germany gets them (captured French aircraft?) to help even the odds.

is that in the parallel universe where Britain really started WW2 and Britain commited all the war crimes and poor old Germany got all the blame when it was just defending itself !

 

[oldcrowcv63]

The Wildcat holds the honour of being the only US fighter to be in operational service for the British during the Battle of Britain, the first 60 being received in July and August 1940, and were based at FAA airfields in Scotland during September and October (though they saw no combat).

ps: the USN didn't receive it's first Wildcat until December 1940 !!!!!!

RC, as a Grumman-o-file, I will take the probably unnecessary opportunity to pick a nit or suggest a minor correction.

The 'Wildcats' arriving in Britain were not exactly the same as those that the USN received in November-December of 1940. The chief difference being the somewhat more mature and export-cleared single-stage supercharged Wright R-1820-G205A engine. THE F4F-3 received by the USN was equipped with the more developmentally problematic two-stage supercharged P&W R-1830-76. While the initial increment of RN Martlet Is were received in the Summer of 1940 they were apparently distributed primarily to training squadrons except for those few assigned to Hatston Air Station in the mid to late Fall of 1940. These were the first US Built fighters to actually become operational. So operational service wirth the RN began at roughly the same time as the USN F4F-3. From what I"ve heard the supposedly mature technology of the Wright engine was found to be somewhat problematic in British service.

Also it is my understanding that delivery took a bit longer than 60 delivered to Britain during the summer of 1940.

The Grumman AC Green Sheets recounting delivery of the 81 Martlet Is (G-36A) record:

4 delivered in July 1940.
27 delivered in August, 1940
25 delivered in September, 1940
21 delivered in October, 1940

I am not sure whether "delivery" means delivered into RN custody at the plant or delivered to the conversion plant at Scotish aviation where the modifications were made, although Linn states that the first 6 G-36A were delivered to the RN, but then shipped to Britain. in August, 1940.

 

[oldcrowcv63]

AFAIK, the only US manufactured aircraft that was in operational service and could have used during the BoB was the Hawk 75 or Mohawk I ( Maybe II) flown to England by French Air Force refugees after the fall of France on or about June 22, 1940. Evidently the RAF didn't immediately incorporate the French refugees or their aircraft into Fighter Command for use during the BoB, but rather appears to have set them aside for conversion to RAF Standards. I wonder if this was actually the case or some historically incomplete reporting for nationalist purposes was done. The story may also have been a matter of keeping the activity of the french refugees covert, nominally fighting with the RAF, to prevent harm to their families still in France.

When I was young I read a book called A Yankee flier with the RAF., published in 1944. It refers to a Hendee Hawk depicted graphically as a radial engined fighter, which I assumed to be an export P-36 although it bears more resemblance to an F4U!

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/32420/32420-h/32420-h.htm

I have seen other interpretations of it being an early export P-47 (or P-43?) used for fictional purposes by the RAF Eagle Squadron. The USAAF was the past-master of historically incomplete PR by its ignoring the widespread use of the Spitfire by US squadrons in the MTO in 1942-43. I wonder if the RAF similarly overlooked the contribution of french airmen flying american a/c?

I wonder if there were ex-French Hawk 75s used in the BoB but not yet acknowledged?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-British_personnel_in_the_RAF_during_the_Battle_of_Britain lists 13 french pilots but does not elaborate,while those from the USA numbered only 11 and have an accompanying and very elaborative text.

This web address gives more info.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/france_pilots_battle_britain.htm

 

[oldcrowcv63]

The Mohawks were really a missed opportunity IMHO. Not for the BoB, but for the Royal Navy.

I've always dreamt of the RAF handing those "surplus" airframes over to the FAA in summer '40... I'm sure they would have been welcomed with open arms! The Hawk had everything needed to make an excellent stop-gap carrier fighter:

- Long legs
- Good performance below 20,000ft (slightly better than Hurricane)
- Short take-off and landing (shorter than both the Hurricane and F4F)
- Compact dimensions (3-4ft shorter narrower than a Hurricane)
- Wide track undercarriage
- Radial engine

Most of all, those airframes were available in summer '40, a full year ahead of Sea Hurricane and most Wildcat deliveries to the FAA...

I believe the proposed hawk had some serious disadvantages for a naval fighter including shorter legs than either the F2A or F4F in all variants. It also is reputed to have had a higher stall speed however that appears to be disputed by : HAWK 75:-- PROMISE UNFULFILLED?

In summary, I don't know why development of a navalized Hawk was not pursued. It may have been pure politics as the website above implies.

IN any event, I don't know that the Hawk would have been any more attractive to the RN than an export F2A. Despite their use of the Gladiator, the RN just doesn't seem to have been in the market for a single piloted export product at the time.

 

[buffnut453]

I wonder if the RAF similarly overlooked the contribution of french airmen flying american a/c? I wonder if there were ex-French Hawk 75s used in the BoB but not yet acknowledged?

The short answer is no. Gerry Beauchamp, who knew and wrote more about the P-36 variants than probably anyone else, records that the P-36 orders diverted from France to the UK started to arrive in July 1940 and over 100 had arrived by September. The new airframes (as opposed to the small number flown to the UK by retreating Norwegian or French pilots) were "held in reserve against a possible shortage of Hurricanes and Spitfires. The majority of these Mohawks were stored at Maintenance Units including Little Rissington, Burtonwood, Wroughton, Lossiemouth and Colerne in the autumn of 1940.

There were other issues getting the ex-French airframes into service. The throttle control functionality had to be reversed - French pilots obtained full throttle by pulling the throttle control to the rear, the exact opposite of the RAF's "balls to the wall" approach. All the maintenance manuals were in French and there was a shortage of US-spec tools and also of spare parts to maintain operational units. The P-36 variant airfames in the UK also comprised a mix of different versions, some being Cyclone powered while a small number had Wasps. The latter never entered operational usage and virtually all the Cyclone models were shipped overseas for service in Africa and India (some P-36 knock-offs were built in India, which enabled the RAF to keep flying the airframe in that theatre through 1944).

By 1941, shortly after the BoB, production of the P-36 had ceased in favour of P-40 variants. With no source for large quantities of new P-36s (with the exception of the small production line in India), there was no point equipping large numbers of RAF squadrons with the P-36.

 

[oldcrowcv63]

The short answer is no. Gerry Beauchamp, who knew and wrote more about the P-36 variants than probably anyone else, records that the P-36 orders diverted from France to the UK started to arrive in July 1940 and over 100 had arrived by September. The new airframes (as opposed to the small number flown to the UK by retreating Norwegian or French pilots) were "held in reserve against a possible shortage of Hurricanes and Spitfires. The majority of these Mohawks were stored at Maintenance Units including Little Rissington, Burtonwood, Wroughton, Lossiemouth and Colerne in the autumn of 1940.

There were other issues getting the ex-French airframes into service. The throttle control functionality had to be reversed - French pilots obtained full throttle by pulling the throttle control to the rear, the exact opposite of the RAF's "balls to the wall" approach. All the maintenance manuals were in French and there was a shortage of US-spec tools and also of spare parts to maintain operational units. The P-36 variant airfames in the UK also comprised a mix of different versions, some being Cyclone powered while a small number had Wasps. The latter never entered operational usage and virtually all the Cyclone models were shipped overseas for service in Africa and India (some P-36 knock-offs were built in India, which enabled the RAF to keep flying the airframe in that theatre through 1944).
By 1941, shortly after the BoB, production of the P-36 had ceased in favour of P-40 variants. With no source for large quantities of new P-36s (with the exception of the small production line in India), there was no point equipping large numbers of RAF squadrons with the P-36.

Thanks Buffnut, I wondered what might have happened to those aircraft that had been flown out of their respective countries. You've answered the question in more detail than I could have hoped. Clearly, if these aircraft (with experienced foreign refugee pilots) and those newly arrived shipments ware not employed, the RAF never really got down to its last ditch reserve fighter A/C options for defense of the homeland. while OTOH, it is my impression that every qualified pilot was employed. I assume the foreign pilots ended up flying either Hurricanes or Spitfires.

 

[buffnut453]

Correct. AFAIK there were no entirely French units during the BoB. Indeed, foreign pilots were typically posted across the RAF to whichever units needed reinforcement or were forming up. There were, towards the back end of the BoB, some Polish and Czech squadrons but even then the make-up wasn't 100% from those nations. Later in the war, there were some Free French units formed (eg flying Blenheims) but I don't have much info on the actual personnel composition of those units.

 

[Shortround6]

I believe the proposed hawk had some serious disadvantages for a naval fighter including shorter legs than either the F2A or F4F in all variants. It also is reputed to have had a higher stall speed however that appears to be disputed by : HAWK 75:-- PROMISE UNFULFILLED?.

I would be a little leery of that site at he seems to have a somewhat confused sense of time if nothing else. He asks "what if" the Hawk had been fitted the an R-1820-56W. First Grumman (Eastern) FM-2 with R-1820-56W wasn't delivered until Sept of 1943, well over two years AFTER the Hawk ceased production and even then the engine was the 1300hp version, the 1350 hp version was the 56A/56WA with a strengthened crankshaft.

Considering that the early American Hawks had trouble with wing skin wrinkling over the wheel wells ( maneuver loads or landing loads?) slamming them repeatedly onto carrier decks with arrestor landings just might not have been a real good idea.

Granted things could have been modified but there is more to carrier ops than just stalling speed.

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Indeed and your warning re the website is heeded. It was the only place I found, after a quick internet search, any reference to proposals of a navalized P-36 even though I recognized the hyperbole used promoting the potential of a P-36 for naval use. As you imply, there is more to building a carrier plane than simply the addition of a tail hook.

 

[nuuumannn]

One issue with the French Hawk 75s that has not been mentioned was that the throttle worked in the opposite sense; push forward decreases power as opposed to 'Balls to the Wall'. This might have caused a bit of confusion in the heat of the battle! Evidence states that the throttles were re-rigged to prevent confusion before the aircraft were delivered to British units.

Although the first Hawk 75s arrived in Britain in mid/late 1940, the first 'British' or Commonwealth unit to get the Mohawks in service was 4 Sqn, South African Air Force, which reformed with the Mohawk on 2 May 1941. The first RAF unit proper was 5 Sqn in India which did not receive its first Mohawk until December 1941, although it had been redesignated from a bomber unit using Audaxes to a fighter unit in February 1941.