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Yes, No, Maybe. Perhaps?The Spitfire was around 2 years before the P-40 in development (based on first flights of prototype and production machines), I dont think there was any issue with what it could do as regards "G" forces in multi axes in flight was there? There were issues on landing loads. The late war Griffon versions were very heavy machines, but the wings were substantially modified, though they looked pretty similar.
During the interwar years and even into the early years of WWII, rifle caliber MGs (.30/7mm) were the mainstay of virtually every Air Force (and Naval Air Arm) on earth.What was the rationale behind mixed caliber armament? Why not all .50's instead of a .30/.50 mix?
It's not the company's decision.If a company is designing in .50's from the get go (P-40, right?), why not ditch .30's completely and simplify logistics?
All good SR - but think you meant 30 cal = 5 per pound and 50 cal = 3 per poundThe .50 cal gun weighed 3 times as the .30 cal gun and the ammo weighed 5 times as much per round.
In 1939 and into 1940 the US .50 gun had a rate of fire of 600rpm at best, the .30 cal gun had rate of fire of 1200rpm. They were able to increase the rate of fire of the .50 cal at some point in 1940 to about 800rpm.
They were able to retrofit existing guns with parts kits.
The supply of .50 cal guns was not enough to provide all the guns that the US wanted. It took time to provide the extra factories.
And lastly, the US was also in the middle of changing the .50 cal cartridge. New propellants allowed for increased velocity. This was also messing up logistics. Which guns would get the new ammo and which guns (Navy AA?) would get the old ammo.
That was in a perfect world.
The .50 guns gave quite a bit of trouble in 1940 and 1941 and beyond. In some cases the .30 cal guns worked and the .50 cal guns did not. The British Tomahawks took quite a while to get the .50 guns fire with any degree of reliability.
Of course you are correct. The fuel fraction of a P-51B/D with 85 gal internal fuel is much more than Bf 109 and Fw 190A, so comparing at 50% fuel fraction as combat GW is advantage P-51B. That said, that is kinda where the P-51B was when engaging in combat over Munich, Berlin, Posnan.Bill,
I understand the comparison of Combat GW between the planes, but how did the climbs compare when they met in battle? How about a Mustang with approx half gas, compared to the 109 / 190 both at half fuel load (weight)? I would think less 1/2 gas in a P-51 would result in a greater percentage of weight gone, and a much better climb rate.
Cheers,
Biff
Because the .50's didn't work if fitted in the wings, they would jam as soon as the plane pulled G's, likewise, as SR has posted what .50's and ammunition are you using and where?, 1939-40 see's a change from low velocity slow firing guns to high velocity quicker firing guns.If a company is designing in .50's from the get go (P-40, right?), why not ditch .30's completely and simplify logistics?
First comment I have heard that P-40 had jamming problems during maneuvers? They were mounted upright whereas the A-36/P-51A/P-51B had canted mounts.Because the .50's didn't work if fitted in the wings, they would jam as soon as the plane pulled G's, likewise, as SR has posted what .50's and ammunition are you using and where?, 1939-40 see's a change from low velocity slow firing guns to high velocity quicker firing guns.
All good SR - but think you meant 30 cal = 5 per pound and 50 cal = 3 per pound
Additional to one of the posters re: Logistics. The AAC/AAF was still part of US Army and in 1940 there were a hell of a lot more 30 cal/30-06 rounds in US Army stores and field than 50 caliber rounds (or M2).
I don't recall hearing that either and in a bit of irony, it was the .30 MG that jammed on Lt. Rasmussen's P-36, leaving him with only a .50 MG to engage the Japanese that morning at Pearl Harbor.First comment I have heard that P-40 had jamming problems during maneuvers? They were mounted upright whereas the A-36/P-51A/P-51B had canted mounts.
This covers a lot of area/time.
Actually the P-40Ls were produced from Jan 1943 to April of 1943.
Allison was not producing enough more powerful engines. The 1943 engines had about 4,000ft more altitude than the 1942 engines. Change over was actually at the end of Nov 1942 with the P-40M model. But 15,000-15,500 altitude for an 1150hp engine wasn't good enough for a general purpose fighter in 1943. It was good enough to fill in and it was good for low altitude work.
The P-40 could be improved but it was going to take a lot of work and it wasn't going to be as good as the P-51B.
Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles on Youtube has a recent video on the P40.
I don't know how to make the movie work here but a link is below.
General things I've read here involve how it's use started before Dec 1941 when the USA was not putting a lot of money into research. The British used it in North Africa in 1941 and they were trying to use it with dogfighting tactics that it was not totally successful at. Then it was Lend Leased to Russia and their airforce had been hit hard by Germany so pilot skill and tactics could have suffered there also.
Greg's video linked above impressed me with how all the added boost and power only increased top speed 20-25mph. That was in part because it still ran out of power before it was able to benefit from reduced drag up high due to the single stage supercharger situation.
P-40 Myths
Most people confuse single-speed supercharger with no supercharger. I know you do not suffer from this misconception I just mention it because it is one of the typical sticking points.
The other myth is that it was slow and unmaneuverable but rugged (it was faster than almost every Japanese fighter it faced, and could out turn all of the German and Italian monoplane fighters). It's real flaws were that it climbed poorly and had a low effective ceiling. I.e. it didn't perform at anywhere near high altitudes.
The P-40E, the one almost always featured in synopsis, movies, video games, and models, actually had a lower 'performance altitude' of about 12,000 ft. It was also slower than typically reported, at least at the original power settings, topping out a bit over 340 mph.
Later the up-engined P-40Es and K (which is just an improved E) got the Allison 1710-73 engine, which (which using higher octane fuel) made them faster especially down low (and conferring the oft quoted top speed of ~360 mph at their highest altitude), and yet the performance altitude was still about 12,000 ft. At 16,000 these planes were already struggling. This meant in the Med they were contending with German fighters that could dive down from 8-12,000 feet above them.
But because it was still always a single speed supercharger, there was no real fix here, as P-40 marks with the higher gear ratio (and thus higher altitude limits) had much less power at low altitude. Whereas P-40K and later model P-40E could produce up to 1570 hp at WEP down around 2,000 ft or lower (from the manual, not counting overboosting) which made them very effective at escaping pursuit in a diving escape maneuver, (and very dangerous to tangle with down low) - the higher geared Allisons couldn't produce much more than 1,200 hp at any altitude.
By comparison, the P-40F (available from late 1941) and L was much more versatile, because it had the two speed supercharger. So it had good speed at low-medium altitude speed, around 4 -6,000 ft, and then the higher middle altitude, with a critical altitude about 17,500 ft and good performance up to around 21-22,000 ft.
Didn't matter how they were mounted, the guns were tested with the plane flying straight and level, RAAF .50's didn't work and neither did the same guns fitted to FAA F4 Martlets, we have covered this in other threads.First comment I have heard that P-40 had jamming problems during maneuvers? They were mounted upright whereas the A-36/P-51A/P-51B had canted mounts.
That P-40 was slow was no myth. 90% of Japanese fighters in service were also slow.
Most of today's people, when they see no turbo attached to an engine on a ww2 A/C, reckon that there was no supercharger whatsoever. That a S/C migth be driven by engine itself is probably seen as an attempt to point out to a perpetuum mobile.
My understanding is that the -33 had a slightly higher ratio, I'd have to go pull down some books to check. But for example according to this Sept 1941 data sheet, it had a critical altitude at military power of 13,600, where it is producing 1040 hp, and performance is usually still pretty good for another 2,000 feet above that. Which puts you at about 15,600Engines on the P-40E and P-40C were making the same power at 15000 ft, ie. 1000-1050 HP there. The -39 (on P-40D and E) was rated for higher boost by the manufacturer, so it's military power was 1150 HP at 12000 ft, vs. the -33 (on P-40, -B and -C) having the mil power of 1040 HP at 14000 ft (a tad lower with backfire screens installed). Take-off power was also greater on the -39: 1150 HP vs. 1040 for the -33.
Well yeah, until they improved itUnfortunately, the V1710-39 was a lesser engine than it was the Merlin III in 1939. It was comparable to the low-level Merlin 45M - the one with smaller impeller (9.50 in diameter, ie. same as on the V-1710).
P-40B, -C, -D and -E saw incremental weight creep (almost 1100 lbs for the basic weight), rendering the V-1710-39 obsolete the day it was introduced.
The -73 seems to basically be identical to the -39 except it was toughened (crank case, crank shaft, and bearings) for higher boost. Many of the -39s were apparently refitted with some of these same parts or the aircraft using them were given -73s which is all a bit confusing, but the net result is you got some souped up P-40Es which were really more like Ks.Unfortunately, the -73 engine still had the same supercharger and it's drive as it was the case with -39, and barely different than the -33. Changes in engine (mostly related to crankshaft and crankcase) allowed for increased boost and thus increase of power with the 100/130 grade fuel.
My understanding is that there were different types of the later generation Allisons, and the variant they put on the 'Interceptor' configurations of the P-40N was the higher boost type, however the 'Fighter Bomber' type P-40N and the P-40Ms were limited to lower boost, this chart for a P-40M with the V-1710-81 shows 1360 for WEP and 1200 for takeoff. The infamous Allison Memo also mentions this, that the higher geared Allisons were going to have more trouble with high boost (due to heat, from what I gather).It was about the S/C being with just one speed drive, but it was also about the S/C being physically small on the V-1710 - not a good thing if the engine is also small. Spinning it up faster, as it was the case on the engines on P-40M and N, gave only so much. That improvement was late by perhaps 12 months, if not 18 months?
Higher-geared V-1710s did a lot more than 1200 HP at any altitude, eg. almost 1500 HP on the P-40N (chart here); less on the late P-39s (not sure about the reasons).
Merlin XX (the V-1650-1 being the member of the family) was outfitted with a bigger S/C (10.25 in impeller diameter) that was also turning fast, at 9.49 times the crankshaft speed. That it was a 2-speed engine had no bearing on high-alt capability, it could've been with just 1 speed S/C drive (the high one) and still beat a V-1710 on a P-40/39/51.
We can see the Merlin 45 - an 1-speed S/C from Merlin XX, also with the much improved inlet, the impeller turning at 9.089 ties the crankshaft speed. It gave about the same power above 12000 ft as the Merlin XX.