P51D/K vs Me109K-14

lesofprimus · Jun 13, 2006

Did the P-51D engage in aerial combat with the Bf-109K-14??? If so, ur argument

I am still bugged by the continuous desire to compare the P-51D to aircraft that came out a year or more after it

is bullsh*t....

davparlr · Jun 14, 2006

lesofprimus said:
Did the P-51D engage in aerial combat with the Bf-109K-14??? If so, ur argument is bullsh*t....

Since my research indicates indicates that only TWO (like one, two) K-14s made it to the front, it is unlikely. And, the argument that the K-14 was a generation past the P-51D and more in the P-51H, which was 30 mph faster than the K-14, is valid.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jun 15, 2006

When he started the thread, he meant to put K-4 not K-14. Thats why it is a valid arguement.

loomaluftwaffe · Jun 15, 2006

besides, if comparing a plane that came out a year later than the other is invalid... then the 109 vs Spitfire argument is invalid

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jun 15, 2006

I dont believe any K-14s made it to the front since as far as I know only 2 if any where actually built and were prototypes.

davparlr · Jun 15, 2006

loomaluftwaffe said:
besides, if comparing a plane that came out a year later than the other is invalid... then the 109 vs Spitfire argument is invalid

No, depending on the versions compared, that would be valid. The 109 and the Spitfire were contemporary pre-war fighters. Comparing a prewar Me109 to a late war spitfire would not. Remember, from 1939 to 1945, aircraft design went from some biplanes to jet and rocket powered models. An incredible increase in technology in only 6 years! I would estimate that generational changes occured about every 6 months in the later years of the war.

mosquitoman · Jun 15, 2006

War speeds up all technology: 500 years of war in Italy produces Michaelangelo, Raphael, Da Vinci, Donatello etc. 500 years of peace in Switzerland produces what? The cuckoo clock

davparlr · Jun 15, 2006

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
When he started the thread, he meant to put K-4 not K-14. Thats why it is a valid arguement.

Good comment and good matchup.

lesofprimus · Jun 15, 2006

If two planes engaged in combat against eachother, it is a viable comparison to discuss, regardless of how many years and versions/marks there are...

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jun 16, 2006

That I agree with as well. You can compare the Bf-109V-1 to the Spitfire XXI. It is obvious which aircraft is better but you can compare them. Who cares what year they were made in.

plan_D · Jun 16, 2006

As it was fair to compare the Bf-109E-4 against the Spitfire Mk.I. The Bf-109 reaching it's fourth operational mark and already seeing combat service. That is a fair, and often, comparison so any comparison in war time is fair. Obvious superiority is often a waste of discussion, however.

loomaluftwaffe · Jun 16, 2006

true
and it had two MG151/15s? i thought those were phased out

cheddar cheese · Jun 17, 2006

mosquitoman said:
War speeds up all technology: 500 years of war in Italy produces Michaelangelo, Raphael, Da Vinci, Donatello etc. 500 years of peace in Switzerland produces what? The cuckoo clock

Actually I think it was an Austrian who invented the cuckoo clock but its still a comical quote all the same

loomaluftwaffe · Jun 18, 2006

schwarzpanzer · Jun 28, 2006

My apologies for being tired whilst posting that, I got 470+mph from the Ta152.

I also said the P51 was an interceptor.

davparlr:

452mph, that is correct.

Since my research indicates indicates that only TWO (like one, two) K-14s made it to the front, it is unlikely. And, the argument that the K-14 was a generation past the P-51D and more in the P-51H, which was 30 mph faster than the K-14, is valid.

Yes, that's right. The K-14 likely met a P51D though, as that was the most commonly encountered Allied fighter? and I think, it's intended target?

Udet:

Hi Udet, as davparlr said 2 did indeed see service (I even have the unit info somewhere)

I think the K4 is probably a better choice for comparison, based on the 2 comments I recieved

Jabberwocky:

Thanks Jabberwocky, your info is very interesting.

Sorry, what does CONUS mean?

Can I just ask afew questions on this?:

Don't forget that the P-51D/K had some advantages of it own: better visibility,

Wouldn't the Galland hood even it out a bit?

a gyroscopic gunsight

Weren't these troublesome?

stronger construction

How so?

and USAAF pilots were starting to recieve G-suits at the time

.

I've heard @ 30,000 ft the air temp is 70 below freezing, is this true?

Would the suit add warmth? Being in a K must have been much less comfy then?

The K14 did exist! I even have the unit No of the one who recieved 2 of them somewhere.

This links the best I have at the moment:

http://www.jg53.com/html/history/aircraft/axis-bf109.htm

K-14

DB 605L 2-stage super

452mph @ 19,700ft

Der Adler:

When he started the thread, he meant to put K-4 not K-14. Thats why it is a valid arguement.

I did mean K-14, I now regret that. I think it was davparlr that suggested the K-4 would be a better comparison, so I don't see why he gets abuse for the opposite, please level it at me if at anyone.

loomaluftwaffe:

besides, if comparing a plane that came out a year later than the other is invalid... then the 109 vs Spitfire argument is invalid

I like it looma, well said!

and it had two MG151/15s? i thought those were phased out

They were surely the biggest that would fit??

The MG151/20 was often swapped for the hub MK103/MK108 though.

- I wonder though how much extra space over the MG151/15 the MG151/20 would take up?

So far as I know, the MG151/15 could be upgraded to an MG151/20?

I would like to add that a stated good point about the Mustang was that a novice could use it, whereas it would take a skilled pilot to make the best out of the Kurfurst.

The armament debate (nose vs wings) also fits here, as in the Soviet evaluations of Yak vs Hurricane etc.

PlanD:

As it was fair to compare the Bf-109E-4 against the Spitfire Mk.I. The Bf-109 reaching it's fourth operational mark and already seeing combat service. That is a fair, and often, comparison so any comparison in war time is fair. Obvious superiority is often a waste of discussion, however.

I agree with every word you said there.

BTW: If anyone has opinions on a (theoretical) K-14 vs P51H 1-on-1, then I'd like to hear them...

Erich · Jun 30, 2006

in all probability the Bf 109K's would of been phased out for the Dora and the Ta 152H series especially as they could clock 465mph and beyond. with this in mind you can basically forget the K-14 vs andy Allied escort fighter.

JG 53 was whipped into nothingness in 1945 and only JG 300 and JG 301 were really doing home defence duties. JG 2 and JG 26 were also heavily engaged by US and RAF/RCAF forces to the point of submission

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jul 1, 2006

Agreed Erich.

schwarzpanzer said:
The K14 did exist! I even have the unit No of the one who recieved 2 of them somewhere.

I am not telling you that it did no exsist. Read my damn posts and understand them before you comment!

The K-14 never reached combat status. It was being tested! 2 were probably built and they were in testing units!

SpitfireKing · Jul 2, 2006

I'm surprised how close that was. The Mustangs' speed and maneuverability was some of the best.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jul 2, 2006

Well the speed of the Bf-109K and the P-51D were very similar and the P-51D was not as maneuverable as everyone thinks.

Erich · Jul 2, 2006

the 109K was going to be phased out and replaced in time either with jets or the Ta 152 which could bust 500mph ............. yep ! so to compare a non-combat operative K-14 with the WW 2 present D and K of the P-51 is a bit silly as the posting of the same accord that I have replied to with more what if answers on the axishistory.forums.com

P51D/K vs Me109K-14

Which would win?

Kurfurst

Mustang

Draw

Impossible to say

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