Piston engine epitome?

Discussion in 'Post-War' started by comiso90, Dec 25, 2006.

  1. comiso90

    comiso90 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2006
    Messages:
    3,672
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Video and multi-media communications expert
    Location:
    FL
    Which single engine, piston aircraft deserves the mantle of "Damn too bad it wasn't available in WW2?" A1 sky raider? Sea Fury? Bearcat? My vote is for the Skyraider.
     
  2. the lancaster kicks ass

    the lancaster kicks ass Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    19,980
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    there are generally considdered two possible aircraft for this title, as you rightly say, the F8F Bearcat and the Hawker Sea Fury, I would of course give it to the Sea Fury, a much better combat record and i believe service life.......
     
  3. mkloby

    mkloby Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    3,561
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    USMC - Capt - 7532
    Location:
    Jacksonville, NC
    I've vote skyraider too. Damn fine A/C. Served in Vietnam. What a beast! Very impressive if you get a chance to see one. Could lug 6000lb of ordnance.
     
  4. Gnomey

    Gnomey World Travelling Doctor
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    41,740
    Likes Received:
    518
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Doctor
    Location:
    Portsmouth / Royal Deeside, UK
    Home Page:
    I would agree with all three as they were the pinnacle of piston engine development.
     
  5. comiso90

    comiso90 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2006
    Messages:
    3,672
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Video and multi-media communications expert
    Location:
    FL
    Did they ever try to mount antitank gun/cannon pods on the sky raider? I suspect that the brass would prefer to reley on rockets.
     
  6. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Messages:
    12,631
    Likes Received:
    309
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    Can I vote for the C-119 "Flying Boxcar"?
     
  7. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Messages:
    12,631
    Likes Received:
    309
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    I believe the Skyraiders in Vietnam had 20mm external gunpods
     
  8. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    20,140
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Washington State
    Good thread idea. My vote is the Sea Fury. Rather impressive record in Korea and post war duty.
     
  9. comiso90

    comiso90 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2006
    Messages:
    3,672
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Video and multi-media communications expert
    Location:
    FL
    20mm gunpods yes but those aren't really tank busters.

    I intentionally mentioned single engine but the Tigercat would have done some damage.
     
  10. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2004
    Messages:
    41,767
    Likes Received:
    684
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A&P - Aircraft Technician
    Location:
    USA/Germany
    I go for the Sea Fury as well and then the Skyraider as a very very close second.
     
  11. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    20,140
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Washington State
    Sea Fury for pure adrenalin. Skyraider for late WWII effectiveness. Who really needed a thoroughbred fighter in 1945 anyway. Skyraider would have been very needed in PTO if Japan had not capitulated.
     
  12. JoeB

    JoeB Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2006
    Messages:
    809
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Perhaps worthy of mention also would be the postwar Lavochkins. The La-11 didn't have super speed by postwar prop fighter standards but excellent power to weight, and heavy armament of 3*23mm synchronized guns.

    It was used in action in the Korean War, most successfully as "wild boar" type night fighter by the Soviets, downing a few B-26's and damaging a few B-29's. In daylight a couple were shot down by F-86's, but one, Chinese piloted, managed to put holes in an F-86 in return, so almost matched the Sea Fury/Corsair/Skyraider benchmark of props which claimed swept wing jets (and of those the latter two also had losing records v. swept wing jets, Sea Fury tied at 1:1, as would only be expected, though usually only their successes are mentioned).

    Joe
     
  13. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,199
    Likes Received:
    784
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA

    I dont know where you got this information from but La-11s NEVER damaged B-29s, the only recip to shoot down a B-29 was a Chinese Yak-9D.

    During the Korean War the Chinese made no claims while flying the LA-11. The only air to air recip kills claimed by the Chinese was in the Yak-9D. LA-11s were encountered 3 times and a total 8 were shot down by USAF aircraft.

    I have doubts the Soviet ever flew LA-11s againist B-26. That would of put them in a proximity of UN troops and risked capture.

    This information comes from ACIG a very accurate and unbiased database that tracks air to air combat since the WW2.

    Here's the Korean War database...

    Korean War Database
     
  14. comiso90

    comiso90 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2006
    Messages:
    3,672
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Video and multi-media communications expert
    Location:
    FL
    What does it mean to have syched guns? They shoot at the same time for greater stability?
     
  15. Gnomey

    Gnomey World Travelling Doctor
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    41,740
    Likes Received:
    518
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Doctor
    Location:
    Portsmouth / Royal Deeside, UK
    Home Page:
    Synched means that the guns fire through the propellor arc and so they need to be synched so that they don't hit the blades of the propellor.
     
  16. comiso90

    comiso90 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2006
    Messages:
    3,672
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Video and multi-media communications expert
    Location:
    FL
    oh yeah... duh... i'm used to that term being used in context of WW 1 fighters not post ww2 birds
     
  17. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,199
    Likes Received:
    784
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    More on the La-11....

    "Along with the various Yak fighters, the Lavochkin La-9 and La-11 were commonly operated by the North Korean and Chinese Air Forces. Typical of later Soviet designed piston engine fighters, their armament was concentrated in the nose of the aircraft. Performance was generally acceptable by WWII standards, but woefully inadequate when faced with turbojet powered opposition. Much speculation has been engaged in by aviation enthusiasts as to how the late war Soviet fighters would have fared against the fighter aircraft of the western Allies. Well, if Korea is used as an example, the answer to that question is 'miserable'. Mustangs, Corsairs and the F-82 had little difficulty killing these Soviet fighters. Although fast and maneuverable, they proved to quite vulnerable to .50 caliber fire, and could not withstand more than a few hits from 20mm cannon rounds. Moreover, the Soviet style tactics and generally poor level of training only exacerbated the ineffectiveness of these aircraft. Typically, U.N. fighter pilots viewed the Lavochkins and the Yaks as 'meat on the table"

    La-11

    "First documented combat use of La-11 took place on April 8, 1950, when these fighters shot down an American Consolidated PB4Y-2 Privateer over the Baltic Sea with all 10 crew lost. Later the same year, La-11 shot down a Lockheed P2V Neptune. By July 1950, La-11 were flying combat air patrol missions over North Korea. The aircraft's main target during the Korean War was the Douglas A-26 Invader night bomber, although numerous skirmishes with North American P-51 Mustangs also took place. Attempts to intercept Boeing B-29 Superfortress bombers proved fruitless. La-11 required 26 minutes to reach B-29's cruise altitude and once there had a speed advantage of only 20 km/h (12 mph) making it easy for the B-29 to evade the attacker in a shallow dive."

    Lavochkin La-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  18. JoeB

    JoeB Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2006
    Messages:
    809
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    5. Last first, I know ACIG, see earlier thread on this forum that posted an ACIG paper about Korea co-authored by me. Nonetheless, IME their Korean War stuff is not all that accurate and unbiased. I gave input to some things but found the main authors wanted to give all benefit of the doubt and then some to Soviet claims in Korea. I would not recommend taking those lists too literally (certainly for Korea, for other wars they cover I'm personally cautious, but I don't know for sure).

    1. I got it from the daily summaries and mission reports of the Far East Air Force, cross referenced to Soviet accounts of their operations. The night of December 23-24 1951, 2 19th BG B-29's were damaged by fighters while attacking Uiju airfield. One was 44-70012. The Soviet night unit at the time, 351st Fighter Regiment, was still operating solely La-11's; it started MiG-15 night ops during 1952. The 351st's La-11's claimed just 1 B-29 damaged during their tour AFAIK.

    Yes, the only outright shoot down of a B-29 by a prop in the Korean War proper was 19th BG's 44-69866, downed by a pair of North Korean (Korean People's Armed Forces Air Corps, KPAFAC) Yak-9's July 12 1950. IOW ACIG is correct on this despite having it for some reason on a Chinese list, and the Yak-9 variant is wrong. The KPA had a few wood winged Yak-9M's still on hand on the eve of the war, inherited from Soviet occupation units, but the bulk of the force and probably all Yak's encountered in combat in the first phase of the war (ie. prior to Soviet/Chinese intervention in Nov 1950) were all metal postwar production Yak-9P's (Russian sources suggest this but captured but never translated NK records, maintenance and flight logs etc. from just pre war and very early war, show it explicitly). NK accounts credit this victory to their leading pilot, Kim Gi Ok.

    Also though, RB-29 44-61815 of the 91st Strategic Recon Sdn which was based in Japan and flew recon Korea and elsewhere in the Far East during the war (unit and particular plane both), was downed by Soviet La-11's near the Soviet far east coast Oct 7 1952. It's usually considered "cold war" rather than Korean War. La-11's also downed a USN PB4Y-2 just before the KW, in the Baltic Sea.

    2. Nov 30 1951, 4th FIW F-86's attacked a formation of PLAAF 8th Bomber Division Tu-2's escorted by 2nd Fighter Division La-11's. They claimed 9 and 3 (understandably mis-ID'ed the latter as La-9's), plus a MiG-15 which came to the aid of the prop formation. Soviet and Chinese accounts say 6 and 4 respectively Tu-2's, though agree 3 La-11's were lost, plus a MiG-15. The La-11 pilot Wang Tianbao claimed an F-86, and although none were downed Maj. Winton Marshall's plane was hit in the canopy by a 23mm from one of the Lavochkins (see "Red Wings Over the Yalu" by Zhang and "Crimson Sky" by Bruning pg 177 for the two sides of this, US records confirm damage to canopy and left wing of 50-680)

    3. Maybe I'm splitting hairs but AFAIK Nov 30 '51 was the only daylight combat with La-11's in the KW proper. The 3 June 20 1952 claims by F-86's were North Korean La-9's per Soviet accounts. The 3 June 1950 credits of La-7's to F-82's and and F-51 were also certainly mis-ID'ed Yak-11's (same source as for Yak variants).

    4. It's covered in considerable detail in various Russian sources, and a number of their claims correspond to night fighter attacks or losses involving B-26's. These were well inside NK where B-26's conducted night interdiction, not over the frontlines. For example a 351st La-11 first claimed a B-26 Oct 12 1951; a mission report of the 3rd Bomb Wing (Light) records an attack by an enemy night fighter at about the same time, but the B-26 was undamaged. November 16 kill credit; B-26 44-35579 was hit in the wing while being attacked, the crew believed, simultaneously by a night fighter and AA while coned in searchlights. The disappearances of RB-26 44-35668 May 15 '52 and B-26 44-35844 June 10 correspond to La-11 claims, general time and place as well as date. There are other Soviet La-11 claims which might match losses, but not certain IMO.

    Joe Brennan
     
  19. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Messages:
    12,631
    Likes Received:
    309
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    Good info Joe.

    Thanks.
     
  20. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,199
    Likes Received:
    784
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    Good Info - but I disagree with some of the Russian sources as if you tally up some of their claims they exceed the actual amounts of aircraft that were in theater (Especially true for the F-80). Again I doubt Soviet pilots were flying La-11 to intercept B-26s. They were there for one thing - fly Mig-15s. Here a breakdown of volunteer units in Korea and there were little La-11s when compared to the Mig-15.

    Appendix 32
     
Loading...

Share This Page