Power-On vs Power-Off Stall Speed

[KiwiBiggles]

Years ago I used to live in the last row of houses before the boundary fence for 27 right at Heathrow. The tip vortices from 747s would actually move the washing on the clothesline. And Concorde could actually blow things over.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I've seen the effects of wingtip vortices up close.

Waiting in line for takeoff at JFK on an RVR 10 or 12 day in rain and fog, you get to rate all the different aircraft types by the artistry of their vortex display as they flare for landing. Hands-down winner: Concorde, followed by that big ugly Ilyushin thing Aeroflot used to fly, with the 74 in third.
The Speedbird Concordes used to touch down aircraft carrier style with the nose coming down immediately on impact with "tumblweed" vortices squirting out from under the wings, while Air France would vanish into the mist with their nose still in the air.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[FSG43]

Waiting in line for takeoff at JFK on an RVR 10 or 12 day in rain and fog, you get to rate all the different aircraft types by the artistry of their vortex display as they flare for landing. Hands-down winner: Concorde, followed by that big ugly Ilyushin thing Aeroflot used to fly, with the 74 in third.
The Speedbird Concordes used to touch down aircraft carrier style with the nose coming down immediately on impact with "tumblweed" vortices squirting out from under the wings, while Air France would vanish into the mist with their nose still in the air.
Cheers,
Wes

Going out of MDW robs ago, in a PA-22-160 with a student, we ended up on our backs due to a 737 being cleared a bit early for takeoff behind us and climbing over us. AT apologized on freq after I heatedly asked, "WTH?!" WTV's are nasty. Even get jostled around in the pattern behind 400-series Cessna's.

 

[FSG43]

Going out of MDW robs ago, in a PA-22-160 with a student, we ended up on our backs due to a 737 being cleared a bit early for takeoff behind us and climbing over us. AT apologized on freq after I heatedly asked, "WTH?!" WTV's are nasty. Even get jostled around in the pattern behind 400-series Cessna's.

"Robs"= eons!

 

[XBe02Drvr]

we ended up on our backs due to a 737 being cleared a bit early for takeoff behind us and climbing over us.

The real surprise in the vortices department is the stumpy little Grumman S2 and its derivatives. I was three miles in trail of a C-1 on approach to NAS Key West in a 150 Acrobat, and was rolled a full 360 despite full opposite aileron. At 1800 feet above downtown Key West, not the pleasantest of circumstances.
My passenger, an obnoxious dweeb who was taking an introductory ride before joining the Navy flying club, was cured of his aeronautical ambitions.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[special ed]

It's important that rookies follow the Instructors directions. In 1962 at 21 I had 3-4 hours after solo. This day I left Lakefront airport (New Orleans) with instructions to practice slow flight and turns over the swamp. Of course, since it was a beautiful day I flew over the city and stooged around my neighborhood. I was aware of a DC-7 on its way to Moisant from Slidell several thousand feet above but was still surprised by his wake although I was well off to his left. Nothing serious, but a lesson that the 150 was a LIGHT aircraft. As long as I'm telling tales of 1962, once when my instructor planned to test me with a go around, he asked for full flaps. He had me clear traffic to my right and behind but I knew we were almost alone in the air. Then I noticed the mike was missing from the panel and the cord went under his knees and he was looking out the left window and mumbling, so I was ready. I like to think it would have been no problem anyway. The other good memory from those days was when I expected solo at ten hours, but no. At the next lesson, the 11th hour, a great Saturday with perfect weather, he didn't show and told the owner of the service to take me up. This man was a large man and was always found sleeping in his office chair. He said," today we will practice touch and go." He fell asleep as we climbed out and would wake when the wheels touched long enough to say "go around." It was great prep for the solo at the next lesson. I have often wondered how we would have fared if I had gotten us in a situation and had to wake him.

 

[FSG43]

The real surprise in the vortices department is the stumpy little Grumman S2 and its derivatives. I was three miles in trail of a C-1 on approach to NAS Key West in a 150 Acrobat, and was rolled a full 360 despite full opposite aileron. At 1800 feet above downtown Key West, not the pleasantest of circumstances.
My passenger, an obnoxious dweeb who was taking an introductory ride before joining the Navy flying club, was cured of his aeronautical ambitions.
Cheers,
Wes

The "key" to WTV induced upsets is to stay above the flight of the machine producing them... all the way to T/D.

Hey, USN flying club? You guys ever have a T-34 in the club? Lovely machine.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

ey, USN flying club? You guys ever have a T-34 in the club? Lovely machine.

Affirm! N74895, a T34B that was "civilianized" per the CalFire STC, but still was on the BUAER active roster and cost us $1 a year lease. Plus all the parts and tech support Pensacola could give us. Club rental $10/hr wet until the oil embargo of '73, then went up to $20. Sweet deal, huh?
100 hrs tt under my belt and a complex signoff, and I was off to MPV (VT) via Punksutawny PA, where my back seat rideshare lived. Loved that plane, learned a lot in it, did a few dumbshits, scared myself a couple times, and put about 130 hours on it in the 3 1/2 years I was there. Yahoo!
Cheers,
Wes

 

[FSG43]

Affirm! N74895, a T34B that was "civilianized" per the CalFire STC, but still was on the BUAER active roster and cost us $1 a year lease. Plus all the parts and tech support Pensacola could give us. Club rental $10/hr wet until the oil embargo of '73, then went up to $20. Sweet deal, huh?
100 hrs tt under my belt and a complex signoff, and I was off to MPV (VT) via Punksutawny PA, where my back seat rideshare lived. Loved that plane, learned a lot in it, did a few dumbshits, scared myself a couple times, and put about 130 hours on it in the 3 1/2 years I was there. Yahoo!
Cheers,
Wes

Yes, she was a sweet bird. The one we had started out "in-civilianized." After six months or so it became "civilianized" with the inter-connected controls. Still easy to spin though.

I was privileged to have checked out a bunch of folks in it including a couple of former WW II TBM pilot's who enjoyed demonstrating torpedo attack methods on tugs and barges. BTW, they were the hardest ones to work with on stalls. Old school habits... enjoyed some of the skidding, zero-gravity, recoveries they demonstrated. But, they were quick learners and learned the "modern" way to recover. Those were good techniques in their trainers from 'back then' but not in the 34 we were flying.

Probably have a bit more than 400-hours in her, mostly CFI'ing. Recall how it was a real sweat-shop under that canopy in the summer months and an icebox in the winter. Avoided her during late Decenber through February. Rear seat wasn't the most climatically comfortable place at times...at least for me.

She could be a bit draggy on final when the student was off target on approach and decided to apply back stick pressure instead of power to aid in G/P control- those wheel wells aided in that department.

Loved to fly her, especially when jumped by another guy from a nearby Navy flying club who was feeling his oats.

Did you know that she had a Baron wing? That's what our mechanic told us.

Ahhh yesss, the good ole days...

Would love to fly one of them again. Very nice primary trainer. And, I've still got the blue plastic covered NAVTOP (?) AFM somewhere in my office. Think I'll dig it out for old times sake.

Cheers,

F

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Did you know that she had a Baron wing? That's what our mechanic told us.

Actually, the Teeny predates the Baron, and was essentially a beefed up Bonanza, the parent of the Travel Air, and ancestor of the Baron, if I have my genealogy correct, and they all share essentially the same wing structure with various enhancements. Likewise, the next size increment of essentially the same wing design evolves: B18/C45/SNB->Twin Bonanza->Queen Air->King Air->B99-> B1900. All in the family.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Yes, she was a sweet bird. The one we had started out "in-civilianized." After six months or so it became "civilianized" with the inter-connected controls. Still easy to spin though.

I didn't know you could fly an unmodified B model outside of the military. I'm told the original Beech civil type certificate only applied to the A (USAF) model, and that the B was never supposed to operate in the civil world outside government auspices. In fact, story has it the procurement contract specified that the B's all be returned to Beech for disposal when Training Command was through with them, and they could not be sold surplus. The B was not type certificated by Beech. The eventual type certificate came when DOD passed several on, lend/lease, to CalFire for use as airtanker leaders. CalFire got them typed over Beech's objections but in Utility rather than Acrobatic category, and with the mandated interconnect and that little anti-spin fin under the notch of the rudder. Ours had little brackets on the side consoles in both cockpits that looked like they were supposed to hold a data card or a placard. Doing an annual, our mechanic found back in the tail cone a couple of small crumpled-into-papermache balls of some sort of cardboard that might once have been labeled "Acrobatics Prohibited".
Cheers,
Wes

 

[FSG43]

Actually, the Teeny predates the Baron, and was essentially a beefed up Bonanza, the parent of the Travel Air, and ancestor of the Baron, if I have my genealogy correct, and they all share essentially the same wing structure with various enhancements. Likewise, the next size increment of essentially the same wing design evolves: B18/C45/SNB->Twin Bonanza->Queen Air->King Air->B99-> B1900. All in the family.
Cheers,
Wes

Well, I'll be..... if that mechanic was still alive I'd pass this onto him... just as an FYI. I'm sure he'd remember.

Regardless, she was a nice airplane to fly.

 

[FSG43]

I didn't know you could fly an unmodified B model outside of the military. I'm told the original Beech civil type certificate only applied to the A (USAF) model, and that the B was never supposed to operate in the civil world outside government auspices. In fact, story has it the procurement contract specified that the B's all be returned to Beech for disposal when Training Command was through with them, and they could not be sold surplus. The B was not type certificated by Beech. The eventual type certificate came when DOD passed several on, lend/lease, to CalFire for use as airtanker leaders. CalFire got them typed over Beech's objections but in Utility rather than Acrobatic category, and with the mandated interconnect and that little anti-spin fin under the notch of the rudder. Ours had little brackets on the side consoles in both cockpits that looked like they were supposed to hold a data card or a placard. Doing an annual, our mechanic found back in the tail cone a couple of small crumpled-into-papermache balls of some sort of cardboard that might once have been labeled "Acrobatics Prohibited".
Cheers,
Wes

The one I flew was a "B" model with that little mod in line with the rudder. It was that nice USN dull white with dull red cowling, rudder and wing tips. No idea about its post-USN flying club disposition, she was there when I left the FBO for my brief stint in the FAA as a POI. Recall the post-interconnect mod C of A was in normal category with spins prohibited. Mech told us it as due to the interconnect (Oh, okay.)

Didn't notice a lot of difference between the no-interconnect and interconnect modification. Still spun nice and she still wiffer-dilled about nicely during the so-called mock dogfights when those guys from the other Navy clubs would jump us. Never a groan or aerodynamic surprise regardless of attitude. Thinking about her makes me yearn for just one more, long, flight.

Y'know, of all the flying I've been privileged to do I can firmly state that I enjoyed CFI'ing the most; especially in the 34', T-50, Maules and L-19's. Oh well... . Now it's an occasional flight review and T/W checkout... not a lot of flying going on near where I now live. Probably should buy a Chief or T-Craft... . "Should."

Be well,

F.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Loved that plane, learned a lot in it, did a few dumbshits, scared myself a couple times, and put about 130 hours on it in the 3 1/2 years I was there.

Funny part is, a year after my EAOS, I went back to the Navy Flying Club with my brand shiny new CFI ticket for my first paid flying job, and discovered that I couldn't even fly the Teeny, much less instruct in it, because I didn't meet the drastic new insurance minimums. The original minimums that I had qualified under (100 hrs TT, 5hr checkout, and a complex signoff) now only applied to commissioned officers, GS rated DOD employees, and rated military aviators. The rest of us peons had to have 1000 TT, 250 retractable, and 25 hours dual instruction in type and a checkride with a rated military aviator who also held a civil CFI. The club (and all other non-military organisations on base) had been forced to switch to GEICO, which back then was a huge insurance bargain for auto, home, boat, business, you name it, but only open to officers and DOD salaried civilians. Navy/Marine enlisted and DOD hourly workers were considered bad risks and had to fish in the "assigned risk" pool. I paid near twice as much for car insurance as an Air Force or Army E5 did.
Oops, sorry, wandered off again.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I left the FBO for my brief stint in the FAA as a POI.

Bet there are tales to tell from that phase of your flying career. Most of the POIs I've encountered have had "colorful careers", to say the least. The feds sometimes seemed to have a penchant for hiring the wolf to guard the flock.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[FSG43]

Funny part is, a year after my EAOS, I went back to the Navy Flying Club with my brand shiny new CFI ticket for my first paid flying job, and discovered that I couldn't even fly the Teeny, much less instruct in it, because I didn't meet the drastic new insurance minimums. The original minimums that I had qualified under (100 hrs TT, 5hr checkout, and a complex signoff) now only applied to commissioned officers, GS rated DOD employees, and rated military aviators. The rest of us peons had to have 1000 TT, 250 retractable, and 25 hours dual instruction in type and a checkride with a rated military aviator who also held a civil CFI. The club (and all other non-military organisations on base) had been forced to switch to GEICO, which back then was a huge insurance bargain for auto, home, boat, business, you name it, but only open to officers and DOD salaried civilians. Navy/Marine enlisted and DOD hourly workers were considered bad risks and had to fish in the "assigned risk" pool. I paid near twice as much for car insurance as an Air Force or Army E5 did.
Oops, sorry, wandered off again.
Cheers,
Wes

Holy moly! That's too bad; sounds like a good ole boy T-34 club existed at that time. The FBO where I CFI'd out of had the Navy flying club based there. A couple of the old phart CFI's told the non-old phart CFI's that only they would be able to instruct in the 34'. Gave us the nonsense, "Too much airplane for you guys." Bear in mind a couple of us were instructing in what's now known as complex airplanes (C-210, A-36, F-33, the venerable Pa-23-150, etc.); yet the 34' was too much for us. Such horse-hockey.

Welll, and I'm not jazzing anyone here, the two biggest old-phart blowhards went out, with Navy club permission, to check themselves out in the bird since there were no qualified CFI's nearby to properly check them out. Yes, it can be done but there is a methodology that must be adhered to; these two thought such methodology was b.s.

The two old-phart CFI's were observed thumbing through the NATOPS AFM and climbed aboard after half an hour or so. They started and taxied out for T/O. I had a student and departed before these two returned so I didn't witness the following but recall the somewhat vivid description given by one of my unqualified CFI buddies.

Must preface the scenario: The general rule amongst the old-phart CFI's was NEVER to use flaps for landings unless it was absolutely necessary... and then only 50% max because landing with full flaps was dangerous; I am NOT kidding.

Anyway, I was told the 34' came in hot, ground affect-sailed 3/4th the length of the runway and executed a G/A. This happened three times. Apparently, on the fourth attempt, whomever was flying decided to drag her in... zero flaps, pitch-up attitude. From my buddy's description, it had a pretty good sink rate going as it approached the runway threshold. The F/P applied full power a hair's breadth before the main gear tires struck the runway pavement's threshold's lip. That, in turn, I was told, drove the nose tire onto the runway with great force. The 34' swerved hither and on a bit, there was screeching brakes and, and I'm not kididing, my buddy said the power was finally reduced to idle. The F/P parked on the nearst taxiway and requested a tow due to a flat tire. Yep, too much of an airplane eh?

Here's the kicker... the Navy flying club had the airplane gone over with a fine-toothed comb after that. Replaced three, yes, three, cracked wheels and two tires. The 34' was placed on the line, tied down and sat for until the late summer of that year. Why? Well, because the two old-phart CFI's said the airplane was dangerous and told the club they'd have to import their own CFI's because the FBO's owner was convinced by these two the 34' was a liability. Of course, importing qualified CFI's was not possible due to distances at the time.

We "unqualified" CFI's smelled an opportunity to make a few bucks because, as we were advised by the club prez, there were a lot of members who wanted to fly it. This lead to a pow-wow with the FBO owner regarding the loss of CFI revenue he was experiencing because the 34' had been condemned. Three of us were "willing" to instruct in the 34' and heavily pushed the revenue aspect. Amazing how money changes a decision-makers mind. Two days later we had a CFI from a "nearby" Navy flying club check each of us out. Yeah, they flew their 34' down and shared it with us. The two old-pharts? Well, they were quite upset that they were shown to be wrong. Yes, their cronies, who had never sat in the 34', also bad-mouthed it whenever they could. Amazing adult behavior.

Sorry to ramble on. The following year I was the only guy left CFI'ing in the 34'. The others got rides flying BE-18 cargo dogs. One died after experiencing an engine failure and not being able to maintain altitude (had numerous wt. increasing STC's) on the operating engine. Night, heavy WX, put it into a farm field, collided with a chicken barn and that was the end. The other guy went to Alaska to fly hunters and fishermen; lost contact with him.

G'night....

F.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Holy moly! That's too bad; sounds like a good ole boy T-34 club existed at that time.

You got it! A select fraternity of retired officers "double dipping" as GS workers basically had the Teeny to themselves, and the new base CO, a frustrated Academy grad who was on his twilight tour way too early, felt that any pilot not military trained was a sky hazard, and enlisted personnel had no business flying at all. No new T34 pilots got checked out for the simple reason that active duty military aviators with a civilian CFI were mighty thin on the ground, and of those that did exist, any concerned with their careers were aware of the Captain's attitudes about general aviation.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[fliger747]

Perhaps time to start a new thread? This one has strayed a ways?

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Perhaps time to start a new thread? This one has strayed a ways?

Or perhaps outlived its usefulness all together?
Cheers,
Wes

 

[Zipper730]

Terrestrial aviators tend to think in terms of hurling themselves at the mass of air, and focus on airspeed. Nautical aviators OTOH, tend to focus on AOA, seeing that as the ultimate defining feature of aircraft handling.

Is that why many USAF planes were far more ornery than the USN counterparts?

Modern day I'm not sure how that applies when you consider variables such as high alpha capabilities (F-22, F-35, etc)

I was too dumb and too cocky to be scared of stalls and spins; the very sort of student I later came to hate.

Actually, that's probably why you grew to hate such students: Many people hate traits they possess.

I have a few as well: Ironically, this was before a diagnosis of Asperger syndrome, I was watching a movie (Rain Man) -- it was in class, I don't really even remember why we were watching it, but go figure. I just remember the character annoying the hell out of me, and I couldn't figure out why, and I remember being told that people often dislike traits they have in others. Usually the undesirable or annoying ones.

It did raise a question, I was an odd-ball, and had been misdiagnosed half a million times in all sorts of ways, and I remember wondering if I had some kind of "autism light" (I didn't know Asperger syndrome was a diagnosis until 2000), and I was told that most people with that are unable to speak and stuff.

So I dropped the idea. A therapist I saw later had considered the possibility I could have it, though I wasn't formally diagnosed. That came in 2001-2002 (I was 18).

One of my instructors in mech school was a retired AF fighter pilot who went through Primary in '48-'49, starting off in T6s. He said of his class, 40% died in Primary, 30% washed out, and 30% graduated. He said he went to more funerals in Primary than he did in two tours in Korea. He didn't have a very favorable opinion of the T6 as an ab initio trainer.

What caused such a horrendously high fatality rate?

My dad went through Navy flight training during WWII and they lost about 5% killed in primary. That was flying Stearmans.

Was it more docile in spins & stalls, or worse? I'm curious why there was such a high fatality rate with the USAF... I'm wondering if it was the aircraft, or the training.