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Waiting in line for takeoff at JFK on an RVR 10 or 12 day in rain and fog, you get to rate all the different aircraft types by the artistry of their vortex display as they flare for landing. Hands-down winner: Concorde, followed by that big ugly Ilyushin thing Aeroflot used to fly, with the 74 in third.I've seen the effects of wingtip vortices up close.
Waiting in line for takeoff at JFK on an RVR 10 or 12 day in rain and fog, you get to rate all the different aircraft types by the artistry of their vortex display as they flare for landing. Hands-down winner: Concorde, followed by that big ugly Ilyushin thing Aeroflot used to fly, with the 74 in third.
The Speedbird Concordes used to touch down aircraft carrier style with the nose coming down immediately on impact with "tumblweed" vortices squirting out from under the wings, while Air France would vanish into the mist with their nose still in the air.
Cheers,
Wes
"Robs"= eons!Going out of MDW robs ago, in a PA-22-160 with a student, we ended up on our backs due to a 737 being cleared a bit early for takeoff behind us and climbing over us. AT apologized on freq after I heatedly asked, "WTH?!" WTV's are nasty. Even get jostled around in the pattern behind 400-series Cessna's.
The real surprise in the vortices department is the stumpy little Grumman S2 and its derivatives. I was three miles in trail of a C-1 on approach to NAS Key West in a 150 Acrobat, and was rolled a full 360 despite full opposite aileron. At 1800 feet above downtown Key West, not the pleasantest of circumstances.we ended up on our backs due to a 737 being cleared a bit early for takeoff behind us and climbing over us.
The real surprise in the vortices department is the stumpy little Grumman S2 and its derivatives. I was three miles in trail of a C-1 on approach to NAS Key West in a 150 Acrobat, and was rolled a full 360 despite full opposite aileron. At 1800 feet above downtown Key West, not the pleasantest of circumstances.
My passenger, an obnoxious dweeb who was taking an introductory ride before joining the Navy flying club, was cured of his aeronautical ambitions.
Cheers,
Wes
Affirm! N74895, a T34B that was "civilianized" per the CalFire STC, but still was on the BUAER active roster and cost us $1 a year lease. Plus all the parts and tech support Pensacola could give us. Club rental $10/hr wet until the oil embargo of '73, then went up to $20. Sweet deal, huh?ey, USN flying club? You guys ever have a T-34 in the club? Lovely machine.
Yes, she was a sweet bird. The one we had started out "in-civilianized." After six months or so it became "civilianized" with the inter-connected controls. Still easy to spin though.Affirm! N74895, a T34B that was "civilianized" per the CalFire STC, but still was on the BUAER active roster and cost us $1 a year lease. Plus all the parts and tech support Pensacola could give us. Club rental $10/hr wet until the oil embargo of '73, then went up to $20. Sweet deal, huh?
100 hrs tt under my belt and a complex signoff, and I was off to MPV (VT) via Punksutawny PA, where my back seat rideshare lived. Loved that plane, learned a lot in it, did a few dumbshits, scared myself a couple times, and put about 130 hours on it in the 3 1/2 years I was there. Yahoo!
Cheers,
Wes
Actually, the Teeny predates the Baron, and was essentially a beefed up Bonanza, the parent of the Travel Air, and ancestor of the Baron, if I have my genealogy correct, and they all share essentially the same wing structure with various enhancements. Likewise, the next size increment of essentially the same wing design evolves: B18/C45/SNB->Twin Bonanza->Queen Air->King Air->B99-> B1900. All in the family.Did you know that she had a Baron wing? That's what our mechanic told us.
I didn't know you could fly an unmodified B model outside of the military. I'm told the original Beech civil type certificate only applied to the A (USAF) model, and that the B was never supposed to operate in the civil world outside government auspices. In fact, story has it the procurement contract specified that the B's all be returned to Beech for disposal when Training Command was through with them, and they could not be sold surplus. The B was not type certificated by Beech. The eventual type certificate came when DOD passed several on, lend/lease, to CalFire for use as airtanker leaders. CalFire got them typed over Beech's objections but in Utility rather than Acrobatic category, and with the mandated interconnect and that little anti-spin fin under the notch of the rudder. Ours had little brackets on the side consoles in both cockpits that looked like they were supposed to hold a data card or a placard. Doing an annual, our mechanic found back in the tail cone a couple of small crumpled-into-papermache balls of some sort of cardboard that might once have been labeled "Acrobatics Prohibited".Yes, she was a sweet bird. The one we had started out "in-civilianized." After six months or so it became "civilianized" with the inter-connected controls. Still easy to spin though.
Well, I'll be..... if that mechanic was still alive I'd pass this onto him... just as an FYI. I'm sure he'd remember.Actually, the Teeny predates the Baron, and was essentially a beefed up Bonanza, the parent of the Travel Air, and ancestor of the Baron, if I have my genealogy correct, and they all share essentially the same wing structure with various enhancements. Likewise, the next size increment of essentially the same wing design evolves: B18/C45/SNB->Twin Bonanza->Queen Air->King Air->B99-> B1900. All in the family.
Cheers,
Wes
I didn't know you could fly an unmodified B model outside of the military. I'm told the original Beech civil type certificate only applied to the A (USAF) model, and that the B was never supposed to operate in the civil world outside government auspices. In fact, story has it the procurement contract specified that the B's all be returned to Beech for disposal when Training Command was through with them, and they could not be sold surplus. The B was not type certificated by Beech. The eventual type certificate came when DOD passed several on, lend/lease, to CalFire for use as airtanker leaders. CalFire got them typed over Beech's objections but in Utility rather than Acrobatic category, and with the mandated interconnect and that little anti-spin fin under the notch of the rudder. Ours had little brackets on the side consoles in both cockpits that looked like they were supposed to hold a data card or a placard. Doing an annual, our mechanic found back in the tail cone a couple of small crumpled-into-papermache balls of some sort of cardboard that might once have been labeled "Acrobatics Prohibited".
Cheers,
Wes
Funny part is, a year after my EAOS, I went back to the Navy Flying Club with my brand shiny new CFI ticket for my first paid flying job, and discovered that I couldn't even fly the Teeny, much less instruct in it, because I didn't meet the drastic new insurance minimums. The original minimums that I had qualified under (100 hrs TT, 5hr checkout, and a complex signoff) now only applied to commissioned officers, GS rated DOD employees, and rated military aviators. The rest of us peons had to have 1000 TT, 250 retractable, and 25 hours dual instruction in type and a checkride with a rated military aviator who also held a civil CFI. The club (and all other non-military organisations on base) had been forced to switch to GEICO, which back then was a huge insurance bargain for auto, home, boat, business, you name it, but only open to officers and DOD salaried civilians. Navy/Marine enlisted and DOD hourly workers were considered bad risks and had to fish in the "assigned risk" pool. I paid near twice as much for car insurance as an Air Force or Army E5 did.Loved that plane, learned a lot in it, did a few dumbshits, scared myself a couple times, and put about 130 hours on it in the 3 1/2 years I was there.
Bet there are tales to tell from that phase of your flying career. Most of the POIs I've encountered have had "colorful careers", to say the least. The feds sometimes seemed to have a penchant for hiring the wolf to guard the flock.I left the FBO for my brief stint in the FAA as a POI.
Funny part is, a year after my EAOS, I went back to the Navy Flying Club with my brand shiny new CFI ticket for my first paid flying job, and discovered that I couldn't even fly the Teeny, much less instruct in it, because I didn't meet the drastic new insurance minimums. The original minimums that I had qualified under (100 hrs TT, 5hr checkout, and a complex signoff) now only applied to commissioned officers, GS rated DOD employees, and rated military aviators. The rest of us peons had to have 1000 TT, 250 retractable, and 25 hours dual instruction in type and a checkride with a rated military aviator who also held a civil CFI. The club (and all other non-military organisations on base) had been forced to switch to GEICO, which back then was a huge insurance bargain for auto, home, boat, business, you name it, but only open to officers and DOD salaried civilians. Navy/Marine enlisted and DOD hourly workers were considered bad risks and had to fish in the "assigned risk" pool. I paid near twice as much for car insurance as an Air Force or Army E5 did.
Oops, sorry, wandered off again.
Cheers,
Wes
You got it! A select fraternity of retired officers "double dipping" as GS workers basically had the Teeny to themselves, and the new base CO, a frustrated Academy grad who was on his twilight tour way too early, felt that any pilot not military trained was a sky hazard, and enlisted personnel had no business flying at all. No new T34 pilots got checked out for the simple reason that active duty military aviators with a civilian CFI were mighty thin on the ground, and of those that did exist, any concerned with their careers were aware of the Captain's attitudes about general aviation.Holy moly! That's too bad; sounds like a good ole boy T-34 club existed at that time.
Or perhaps outlived its usefulness all together?Perhaps time to start a new thread? This one has strayed a ways?
Is that why many USAF planes were far more ornery than the USN counterparts?Terrestrial aviators tend to think in terms of hurling themselves at the mass of air, and focus on airspeed. Nautical aviators OTOH, tend to focus on AOA, seeing that as the ultimate defining feature of aircraft handling.
Actually, that's probably why you grew to hate such students: Many people hate traits they possess.I was too dumb and too cocky to be scared of stalls and spins; the very sort of student I later came to hate.
What caused such a horrendously high fatality rate?One of my instructors in mech school was a retired AF fighter pilot who went through Primary in '48-'49, starting off in T6s. He said of his class, 40% died in Primary, 30% washed out, and 30% graduated. He said he went to more funerals in Primary than he did in two tours in Korea. He didn't have a very favorable opinion of the T6 as an ab initio trainer.
Was it more docile in spins & stalls, or worse? I'm curious why there was such a high fatality rate with the USAF... I'm wondering if it was the aircraft, or the training.My dad went through Navy flight training during WWII and they lost about 5% killed in primary. That was flying Stearmans.