RAF Bomber Command....

[Hop]

The difference lies within the world also. Despite the claim that "marshalling yards" were just an American euphenism for terror bombing, it is a fact that the Reichsbahn was in ruins by the end of war, deprieved of its rolling stock; as were the German oil industry.

And it wasn't a mysterious fairy that did it, it was USAAF and its bombers and leaders who pushed for it

Whilst it was the Americans who pushed most for the oil campaign, the transport campaign was the brainchild of the RAF's Solly Zuckerman. Both the 8th AF and Bomber Command contributed to the oil and transportation plans.

Nobody is denying the 8th AF also genuinely targeted German transportation targets. The point Davis is making is that when the 8th were going after a particular rail target they did so visually using HE. When they were conducting an area raid they usually did so using radar aiming and a large proportion of incendiaries, and claimed the target was a "marshalling yard".

 

[tail end charlie]

parsifal:

In what way do the moral points you raise change BC mission and BC´s inefficience? They don´t. By the way, I get why the Brits did what they did, I´m just saying it didn´t work.

I fail to see the difference in efficiency between BC bombing at night with oboe and the USAAF bombing through cloud with radar. Perhaps you could explain?

 

[Kurfürst]

1. In your posts above you are on the verge of becoming downright insulting to people. Choose your words more wisely. You have received enough warnings from me in other threads. There are no more.

2. You are a revisionist here and possibly a sympathizer (I believe this more and more every day...).

Your points 1. and 2. seem to be at odd with each other. You ask me not to insult people, then you start to insult me in the next sentence..

3. Quit kidding yourself that the Luftwaffe attacked London, Coventry, Guernica, Warsaw adn Wielun and most other cities for pure military reasons.

I am not kidding myself, I have researched it, so I know for certain. In London the targets attacked were the London docks. Of the many raids, only three were repraisal raids for (from the German POV, indiscriiminate due to their inaccuracy, though the targets were acceptable) British attacks on German cities.

The target in Coventry was the cities extensive aero industry, plain and simple, which was successfully destroyed. The city itself got its own pounding in the process. Exceptional, hardly.

Take a walk in Győr. There was a Messerschmitt factory there. After 15th AAF visited it, no Messerschmitt factory, and no main street either.

They were not military targets, they were bombed for the pure fact that they were "enemy" cities.Nothing else.

Hermann Göring's general order, issued on 30 June 1940:

The war against England is to be restricted to destructive attacks against industry and air force targets which have weak defensive forces. ... The most thorough study of the target concerned, that is vital points of the target, is a pre-requisite for success. It is also stressed that every effort should be made to avoid unnecessary loss of life amongst the civilian population.

Seems to be at odds with what you seem to believe.

British official POV from Collier, Basil. The Defence of the United Kingdom. HMSO, 1957:

Although the plan adopted by the Luftwaffe early September had mentioned attacks on the population of large cities, detailed records of the raids made during the autumn and the winter of 1940-41 does not suggest that indiscriminate bombing of the civilians was intended. The points of aim selected were largely factories and docks. Other objectives specifically allotted to bomber-crews included the City of London and the governmental quarter rounds Whitehall.

Also at odds. So, can you specifically menion LW attacks on Britain in 1940 that you believe to be terror raids?

There may have been military targets in the city, but that does not warrant the complete destruction of a city.

No city was completely destructed during the Battle of Britain. The industry and shipping, OTOH, was hit hard. Nor elsewhere - Frampol comes close, but it was a sizable village rather than a city, with wooden houses.

Quit trying to church up the Luftwaffe.

I am merely stating the well researched and provable historical facts. Does this bother you?

4. What was the military value of the millions of Jews, Gypsies, Slavs that were exterminated by the Nazis? Are you going to be apologetic to them?

Nope, genocide is genocide, whoever commits it: British in Sout Africa, the Americans on the Philippines, the Belgians in the Kongo, the Japanese in China, the Russians in Ukraine etc. or the Germans in, well, Ukraine again.

That is, however, not the topic of the current discussion. Do you want it to be? Count me out then. Even more boring and pointless discussions than this one.

5. Let me get this straight? It is okay for the Luftwaffe, or any German military branch to commit war crimes but you condemn the Allies for it?

So far this thread has shown opposite trend: white-washing Bomber Command. First it was relativizing it with the "USAAF did the same" arguement, and then the "Luftwaffe started it all" arguement.

The problem with both arguements is that they don't stand up to historical scrunity: the USAAF was certainly not very fond of terror bombing (over Europe. Over Japan it was very fond of it indeed) and Luftwaffe certainly didn't do it with the regularity or being the first or most happy advocate of it.

The Harrissian apology is always that "they sow the wind...". Trouble is, Arthur Harris himself was an active member of the terror bombing club during the 1920s. While Hitler was still a prisoner in some German castle, busy writing the Mein Kampf, Arthur Harris as a young RAF officer was already putting terror bombing into practice in Iraq against tribal rebels, saying that a few bombers destroying an Arab village will "convince" them soon enough, and that the "Arab only understands the heavy hand'. Nope, he didn't need Goering, Hitler or whoever to show him the way or give him an excuse.

I never see you attack the Nazi's for committing crimes or terror bombing.

There's no problem with attacking the Nazis for their crimes or the terror bombings they commited. They've commited enough anyway, so I always wonder why it is neccessary to try so hard to condemn them for crimes they have not commited....?

You see, its always seemed odd to me, that the same politcal system that carefully documented to genocide of millions of Jews etc., would took so much care to hide the alleged "terror bombing" nature of small bomber attacks with a few hundred civillian casulties at best.. which *MUST* be the cause that if we search the LW records for allaged terror raids, the orders written back in the 1940 and after which the attacks were executed, keep repeating airfield, factory, bridge, dock and so on, and so rarely to just hit the see whole city anywhere.

6. Do not skirt around this question. Show me with facts what were the military targets at these locations?

a. Guernica

Target was the infrastructure to aid Francoist advance, by bombing of the bridge accross the river and simultaniously the housing nearby the bridge so it would collapse on the road and block it. The city also had a Republican garrison and a small arms factory, but these weren't direct targets.

Of course why the case of Guernica was so much bloated out of proportion was that

a, Allied press skyrocketed casulties, writing some 3000 or more rather than the 2-300 actually identifiable, some of them soldiers
b, Picasso
c, The fact that it was a Basque town, and the Basque independence movements are currently using it for political aganda against the Spanish "supressors" (talk about political spin with the Italians and Germans bombing a bridge, but not one Spanish plane being there...)

b. Wieluń (I am really interested in this one Kurfurst. What were the military targets, come on enlighten me. Also don't give me the crap about a Polish Cav Brigade being in the City. You don't need to completely destroy a town by aerial bombardment for that reason...).

Polish cavarly brigade advancing to and around the city. Pretty well documented. They bombed these, which is what the Stuka pilots say who bombed, which is what the operational orders for Stukas that day say, too.

It was effective and they routed, Wielun felling the German Army on the first day. The town wasn't 'completely destructed' either - a few dozen Stukas that were there could hardly accomplish such with their small bombload anyway. The small downtown area and the houses around the city square got a couple bombs - this is the picture they are always showing, but kindly compare Wielun's entire area to that - which is sad but hardly exceptional.


-continued-

 

[Kurfürst]

--- more excitement coming ---

c. Warsaw (sure there may have been troops in the city, but certainly the whole city was not a military target.)

September 1. Operation Wasserkante was planned for massive bombardment of Warsaw with bombers. Called off. Bombing was limited tp Warsaw's PZL aircraft factory and airfields around the city.

First bombing done by KGr 100 with X-Geraet guidance, target being bridges accross the city. Between 3 and 11 September, ''LnAbt'' 100 conducted four precision night missions using the X-Gerät blind bombing navigation system for the first time in the war, destroying a munitions dump.

September 9, the German army reaches Warsaw, and by 13 September it is under siege as the garrison refuses to surrender.

On the 13 of September, following orders of the ''ObdL'' to launch an attack on northern Warsaw, the Jewish Quarters, and also military targets, justified as being for unspecified crimes committed against German soldiers. In the last hour commander of the participating Kampgruppe changes targets to military ones, and as a result comes in conflict with von Richthofen. He is later sacked. 183 bomber sorties were flown with 50:50 load of high explosives and incendiaries, reporting to have set the Jewish Quarter ablaze.

On 14 September the French Air [[attaché]] in Warsaw reported to Paris that "... the German Air Force acted in accordance to the international laws of war [...] and bombed only targets of military nature. Therefore, there is no reason for French retorsions."

On 22 September [[Wolfram von Richthofen]] requested: "Urgently request exploitation of last opportunity for large-scale experiment as devastation terror raid ... Every effort will be made to eradicate Warsaw completely". His request was rejected by ObdL.

On 25 September the Luftwaffe, parallel with artillery bombardment, flew 1,150 sorties and dropped 560 tonnes of high explosive and 72 tonnes of incendiaries to soften up the defences of the besieged city.

As the modern bomber types were already transferred to the West to conserve the strength of the bomber units for the upcoming western campaign, the modern He 111 bombers were replaced by Ju 52 transports using "worse than primitive methods" for the bombing. Due to prevailing strong winds they achieved poor accuracy, even causing some casualties to besieging German troops.

On the ironic side, the Germans of course could have also used artilerry to smash their way into the besieged city, keeping everybody in this thread happy, except the citizens of Warsaw of course, but they had little say in the matter. In any case, Warsaw was surrounded, demanded to surrender, refused and thus was besieged. Compare how the Brits took Caen, not damaged but simply levelled the whole city they besieged (and made their own job rather harder with it btw).

d. Frampol (I guess you consder destroying a city and killing 4000 people for practice a military target huh?

I have already noted that Frampol may have well been a case of a wanton terror raid, but the evidence is lacking.. read back. And 4000 dead? The whole city haven't got that many citizens to start with, are you saying the Germans killed absolutely everyone in the city via air bombing..? 'cos that would be exceptional indeed..

So again I ask you this Kurfurst, how did the Germans not use terror bombing but the allies did?

Did I say so? Nope. OTOH the above examples are explicitely NOT examples of German terror bombing, nor was there any "bomber barons" in the Luftwaffe which would press for the case of terror bombing so much as Harris did in Britain. Plus there was not much need - the German Army was victorious on the continent, the Luftwaffe had air superiority and its bombers could operate by daylight for precision strikes, and when not their bombers had radio bombing guidence systems to do the same by night. In short, they did not have the doctrine, they did not have the will, and they did not have the need to so.

None of which could be said of the British. The army's stuff was in the sand of Dunkerque and Dieppe, they had people like Harris completely fond of terror bombing and douhetism for decades before WW2, they didn't have effective radio navigation systems for much of the war, nor could the Bomber Command hope to bomb in the daylight after December 1939. I guess that's a recipe for what they did eventually.

How is it that you have no problem with the Nazi's committing war crimes? Yeah you struck a nerve here.

Can you specifically mention Nazi war crime which I have supposedly have no problem with? Because frankly, I don't remember saying so. You seem to have brought it up, out of no-where. So name the war crime, and then I can say wheter or not I have a problem with it.

 

[Marcel]

the Luftwaffe had air superiority and its bombers could operate by daylight for precision strikes

I wouldn't call Rotterdam a "precision strike" as they succeeded in missing a lot of military and hit a lot of civilians. But it's true that Rotterdam was a military target. I think Rotterdam was one of the LW's biggest blunders.
But as they threatened to bomb Utrecht if the NL would not surrender, I think it is also quite possible that it was also meant as terror bombing.

 

[tail end charlie]

This thread is degenerated.. but,

Pardon me for degenerating a thread. The german ack ack defenses were at the end of the war operated by boys women and girls. Russian women flew combat aircraft and fought in tanks and as snipers. The idea of innocent civilians is a modern western creation which has nothing to do with all out war and never has had. Dresden was a beautiful city bombed near the end of the war which resulted in a firestorm but many cities were flattened and burned by all sides, I dont see the difference, it was a war.

 

[Kurfürst]

Well, "precision" on the level of the 1940s should be surely a better phrase... I've just been looking at a after-action aerial photo taken after the 15th AAF tried to hit the souther railway bridge of Budapest.. I am not sure they hit it in the end, but the surroundings within about a 500 meter radius surely show they tried hard...!

 

[pbfoot]

Except, of course, that BC wasn't dropping bombs "randomly" and with the introduction of Oboe, Gee and H2S BC could and did carry out "precision' bombing even at night, and they did so with far heavier and more destructive bombs than were typically used during daylight attacks, for example BC dropped 45% of the tonnage dropped against German oil targets.
Oil Campaign of World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gee and Oboe were line of sight navaids to bomb a target more then 300 miles away the aircraft had to be a very high altitude 26000 ft and even then poor results were obtained
H2S was a primitive radar which is alright if you had large geographic landmarks (Hamburg Harbour) that would show up on the screen(PPI) but near to useless when bombing a city like Berlin with little in the ways of geographic features .
Also please note that BC attacks on oil began in earnest after thye apt named Butcher Harris was placed under command l of the Combinrd Chiefs of staff on Sept 14th 44 and the directive to attack oil on the SEpt 23rd 44

 

[Marcel]

Well, "precision" on the level of the 1940s should be surely a better phrase... I've just been looking at a after-action aerial photo taken after the 15th AAF tried to hit the souther railway bridge of Budapest.. I am not sure they hit it in the end, but the surroundings within about a 500 meter radius surely show they tried hard...!

And that was even a good attempt. You probably know the British made report (Butt report) of their "success" during the first years of the war. The percentage of a/c that bombed within 5 miles was only 25%. In reality it probably was even worse. Admittedly this was at night, but I don't suppose the LW was much better than that.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have made a dear mistake...

Getting involved in a discussion with someone so one sided as Kurfurst.

I will admit you make a good argument, but I think you are very wrong. To actually believe that the Luftwaffe made every effort to not harm civilian populations is extremely naive. To use the argument that the Germans only attacked the docks in London or only military targets in any city is extremely wrong.

My new found beliefs in your agenda Kurfurst will not change...

Unfortunately I am afraid that I would end up resorting to your own tactics, if I continue.

 

[tail end charlie]

RAF BC was randomly hitting German cities and the countryside at a huge cost of both manpower and material for almost exactly five years (in the first half first out of incompetence, then out of immorarilty) and achieving nothing in return, and was unwilling to abandon the slaughter until its nose was bloodied over Berlin, and Eisenhowever was pushing for bombing something worthwhile in the first half of 1944 - the railway system - in France and oil refinieries in Germany.

In 1939 and 40 BC were hitting coastal ports and airfields to prevent an invasion hardly nothing in return

I note Eisenhower wasnt pushing for bombing something worthwhile it the second half of 1943.

Please explain the precise and moral military target in Berlins suburbs?

 

[Hop]

The target in Coventry was the cities extensive aero industry, plain and simple

What about the orders to "wipe out the dense concentrations of worker's housing"?

which was successfully destroyed

From the War Cabinet reports compiled a week or more after the Coventry attack:

Coventry is the chief centre of aero-engine assembly factories and
machine tools. Probably all factories have been more or less affected by the
dislocation of electrical, gas and water supplies, and the effect on production of
this factor has been more serious than that caused by direct damage to plant and
machinery.

and

, We are also having difficulties about machine tools. These do not spring
from the actual damage done to the tools. On the contrary, it has been found
that the machine tool stands up to the blast of the bomb remarkably well.
In the attack on Coventry, where 50,000 machine tools were concentrated,
only 700 were destroyed. In Birmingham, where as many as 70,000 were
assembled, 700 were destroyed.
But while the machine tools in our possession might give very good results
when the men worked them by night as well as by day, it is now very hard to
persuade staffs in some centres to do night duty.
The general effect has been to cut down the proportion of men employed on
night work. In many directions night shifts have been abandoned.

 

[Kurfürst]

What about the orders to "wipe out the dense concentrations of worker's housing"

Something along the lines that I'd like to see them.

 

[tail end charlie]

Well, "precision" on the level of the 1940s should be surely a better phrase... I've just been looking at a after-action aerial photo taken after the 15th AAF tried to hit the souther railway bridge of Budapest.. I am not sure they hit it in the end, but the surroundings within about a 500 meter radius surely show they tried hard...!

I read that the first raid by the USAAF resulted in 2 of the planes being so confused by the camouflage that the pilots didnt drop any bombs. Even daylight bombing isnt easy you need a good bombsight. Wiki says this about the Norden bomb sight.

By the spring of 1943 some impressive results were being recorded. Over Bremen-Vegesack on 19 March, for instance, the 303d Bombardment Group dropped 76 per cent of its load within the 1,000 ft ring. Under perfect conditions only 50 percent of American bombs fell within a quarter of a mile of the target, and American flyers estimated that as many as 90 percent of bombs could miss their targets.[5][6][7] Nevertheless, many veteran B-17 and B-24 bombardiers swore by the Norden.

 

[bobbysocks]

what about the v1 and v2 attacks....precision strikes.... aimed towards military installations? hardly, the target was downtown london. and they were terror attackes pure and simple. hitler changed his tactics in during the BoB from military facilities, airfields and plants to jolly old london herself. and that was his undoing for several reasons..1. it gave the RAF time to build and resupply ac and 2. it solidified british resolve instead of breaking the english will...which ended up being harder than hilters resolve...and cost him most likely the BoB and the subsequent planned invasion of the british isles.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

what about the v1 and v2 attacks....precision strikes.... aimed towards military installations? hardly, the target was downtown london. and they were terror attackes pure and simple.

Don't even bother with it. He will say it is allied Propaganda...

I am going to let my judgment get away from myself here.

 

[RCAFson]

Gee and Oboe were line of sight navaids to bomb a target more then 300 miles away the aircraft had to be a very high altitude 26000 ft and even then poor results were obtained
H2S was a primitive radar which is alright if you had large geographic landmarks (Hamburg Harbour) that would show up on the screen(PPI) but near to useless when bombing a city like Berlin with little in the ways of geographic features .
Also please note that BC attacks on oil began in earnest after thye apt named Butcher Harris was placed under command l of the Combinrd Chiefs of staff on Sept 14th 44 and the directive to attack oil on the SEpt 23rd 44

I guess you've never heard of the Pathfinders? This force acted as a target marker force and could use the high altitude capability of Mosquito to enhance the range of Gee and Oboe. "The Path Finder Force flew a total of 50,490 individual sorties against some 3,440 targets."
Pathfinder (RAF) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am not saying that BC didn't engage in area bombing designed to "de-house" civilians but the fact is that BC could and did engage in "precision" bombing against targets in Europe at night, and did so successfully.

 

[Glider]

I like the bit about H2S radar being primitive, a radar way ahead of its time and used on Vulcans until they were withdrawn in the early 1980's. I also like the assumption that all German raids were precision. In the little blitz of early 1944 the Luftwaffe were happy to hit any part of London. Even during the BOB those of us reading the day by day account will have noticed the use of fighter bombers dropping bombs from high altitude. I never realised that the Me109 was a precision high altitude bomber.

Its probably true to say that where possible the air forces tried in the early days to be precise in their bombing if only because they wanted to make the most effective use of their assets. However, when this became impossible for whatever reason then bombing became random.

Kurfurst does have a point about the length of time that Bomber Command stuck with area bombing even after they developed the tools to be more precise. I would have hoped that raids such as Peenemünde would have shown what could be achieved.

 

[RCAFson]

In any event it seems kind of strange that the Luftwaffe could engage in outright terror attacks against cities like Warsaw and Rotterdam, to force a previously neutral country to surrender through sheer terror, and then have the Luftwaffe cry foul when the same tactics were used against Germany by BC. The Luftwaffe started a campaign of aerial terror against defenceless opponents and then German propaganda cried "terror fluger" when they got the same back. Germany could hardly expect to fight half a war.

Luftwaffe Terror Raids : Rotterdam
Rotterdam Blitz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Luftwaffe Terror Raids : Warsaw

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Führer has ordered that the air war against England be given a more aggressive stamp. Accordingly, when targets are being selected, preference is to be given to those where attacks are likely to have the greatest possible effect on civilian life. Besides raids on ports and industry, terror attacks or retaliatory nature are to be carried out against towns other than London. Minelaying is to be scaled down in favour of these attacks.

-14 April 1942.