Realistic max speeds WW2 fighters / Speeds of the late 109s
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davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
I posted the chart but here is the entire report.
P 51D Performance Test
Oops I just noted an error. Fuel in fuselage tank on the P-51 was 25 gallons, not 35 as I stated before.
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
So it seem like they were probably in pretty decent condition to start with. That flight from Pensacola to Norfolk must have been fun!
Hello how many Bf 109s were using 1.98ata? Early 45 at least part of II/JG 11, which reported on 6 March 45 that it had converted 11 109s to use 1,98ata, and that was the unit ordered to do the field tests for this higher pressure.
If we look the situation on 1 Dec 44, war already more or less lost, the main users of Bf 109s in the West
III /JG 1 5 Bf 109G-10, 68 G-14
I./JG 3 31 Bf 109G-14/AS, 35 G-10
II./JG 3 40 Bf109G-14, 36 Bf109G-10
III./JG 3 58 Bf109G-14, 9 K-4
I./JG 4 39 Bf 109G-14
III./JG 4 7 Bf 109G-10, 9 G-14, 36 K-4
IV./JG 4 46 Bf 109G-14, 16 G-10
II /JG 11 2 Bf 109 G-6/U2, 72 G-14
III /JG 26 36 Bf 109G-14, 35K-4
I/JG 27 29 Bf 109G-14, 2G-14/AS, 15 K-4
II/JG 27 22 Bf 109G-14/AS, 8 G-10, 4 K-4
III/JG 27 38 Bf 109K-4
IV/JG 27 32 Bf 109G-14, 30 G-10
II./JG 53 30 Bf 109G-14/U4, 16 G-14/AS
III./JG 53 56 Bf 109G-14/AS
IV./JG 53 1 Bf 109G-14, 49 G-14/AS
I./JG 77 83 Bf 109G-14
II./JG 77 43 Bf 109G-14, 32 G-10
So altogether in these units: 556 Bf 109G-14, 30 Bf 109G-14/U4, 176 Bf 109G-14/AS, 169 G-10, 137 K-4 ja 2 Bf 109 G-6/U2
II/JG 11 was the Gruppe which later got the task of service testing 1,98ata in Jan 45, so when it matters there seems to have not been 2000hp DB605Ds around, March 45 was clearly too late to make some meaningful difference to general situation. At the beginning of Dec 44 109G-14 was the most common Bf 109 P-51 pilots met.
Juha
If we look the situation on 1 Dec 44, war already more or less lost, the main users of Bf 109s in the West
III /JG 1 5 Bf 109G-10, 68 G-14
I./JG 3 31 Bf 109G-14/AS, 35 G-10
II./JG 3 40 Bf109G-14, 36 Bf109G-10
III./JG 3 58 Bf109G-14, 9 K-4
I./JG 4 39 Bf 109G-14
III./JG 4 7 Bf 109G-10, 9 G-14, 36 K-4
IV./JG 4 46 Bf 109G-14, 16 G-10
II /JG 11 2 Bf 109 G-6/U2, 72 G-14
III /JG 26 36 Bf 109G-14, 35K-4
I/JG 27 29 Bf 109G-14, 2G-14/AS, 15 K-4
II/JG 27 22 Bf 109G-14/AS, 8 G-10, 4 K-4
III/JG 27 38 Bf 109K-4
IV/JG 27 32 Bf 109G-14, 30 G-10
II./JG 53 30 Bf 109G-14/U4, 16 G-14/AS
III./JG 53 56 Bf 109G-14/AS
IV./JG 53 1 Bf 109G-14, 49 G-14/AS
I./JG 77 83 Bf 109G-14
II./JG 77 43 Bf 109G-14, 32 G-10
So altogether in these units: 556 Bf 109G-14, 30 Bf 109G-14/U4, 176 Bf 109G-14/AS, 169 G-10, 137 K-4 ja 2 Bf 109 G-6/U2
II/JG 11 was the Gruppe which later got the task of service testing 1,98ata in Jan 45, so when it matters there seems to have not been 2000hp DB605Ds around, March 45 was clearly too late to make some meaningful difference to general situation. At the beginning of Dec 44 109G-14 was the most common Bf 109 P-51 pilots met.
Juha
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This one is not 1,98ata.. it is without MW boost, some weird power setting on DC engine.. but 1,8ata.
This is 1,98ata, 2000 PS. 608 km/h sea level speed, this is 378
http://www.kurfurst.org/Performance_tests/109K_PBLeistungen/files/5026-18_DCSonder_MW_geschw.jpg
Does this aircraft have wing pylon for tanks under wings? Or without? I think without, this would explain. I see lot of tests on this site, P-51 seem to vary very greatly from test.. other P-51D I see on site with 67 boost is 359 mph at SL..
I do not think weight effects top speed much.. otherwise P-47 would not even roll on tarmac
There is chart on kurfurs site shows this.. somewhere.. very little influence from weight, drag item effect much greater.Hello Ratsel
So how many 109s there were in front line units with 2000hp engine? All concrete I'm aware was the message that the unit selected for field testing 1,98ata had convereted 11 by 6 March 45, so quite rare bird according to that info.
Juha
So how many 109s there were in front line units with 2000hp engine? All concrete I'm aware was the message that the unit selected for field testing 1,98ata had convereted 11 by 6 March 45, so quite rare bird according to that info.
Juha
Juha,
There is some research there at kurfurst site here: Kurfürst - OKL, GdJ-Grp. Qu-, Br. B. Nr. 1561/45 g.Kdos. von 20. März 1945.
It say: 4 Gruppen at 1,98 atü.
There is some research there at kurfurst site here: Kurfürst - OKL, GdJ-Grp. Qu-, Br. B. Nr. 1561/45 g.Kdos. von 20. März 1945.
It say: 4 Gruppen at 1,98 atü.
Hello Juha,
Still waiting to hear back from Rasmussen but I'm pretty sure W.Nr.110 064 (when it was converted at Erla-Antwerpen) was equipt with the DB 605ASCM around March 1944. It was a AS + C3 + MW-50.
It says 1.98ata 'cleared' for use. It does not say if it was used.
As for the number of a/c:
I./JG27 - 25 on hand, 16 operational
III./JG27 - 19 on hand, 15 operational
III./JG53 - 22 on hand, 5 operational
IV./JG53 - 51 on hand, 30 operational
Einsatzbereitschaft im Bereich Luftflotte Reich, 12.4.45
This does not give the model numbers of the 109s, so is only speculation that they are all 109K-4s.
..an extract from Lorant/Goyat "Bataille dans le ciel d'Allemagne" ...(a translation)
At Kleinkarolinenfeld, around ten pilots who no longer had aircraft piled into a truck at dawn on 27 April 1945 in order to drive to the airfield at Bad Wörishofen and take delivery of Messerschmitt 109s fresh out of the factories. Fw. Arnulf Meyer (9. Staffel) never forgot the scenes they witnessed that day:
Rows of Messerschmitt 109s and Focke-Wulf 190s lined up around the airfield perimeter, others out in the open (!) under the odd camouflage net. Teams of oxen in yokes in the midst of all this enabled the aircraft to be moved around without utilizing any manpower or fuel… At least one hundred fighters from the assembly lines were dispersed around the field. The Officer that met us showed us the latest sub-types to be delivered: Focke-Wulfs with in-line engines and in particular the Messerschmitt Bf 109 K, an improved sub-type of our "Gustav" model. There was bustling activity on the field. Aircraft were landing and taking off constantly. There was no airfield protection Rotte in the air. Our surprise was even greater when we were told that thirty brand new aircraft were due to arrive at the depot that day if the necessary pilots to ferry them in could be found. We were presented to the airfield commander who had set up his office in a comfortably appointed wooden shack: a fatherly Major who gave us a pleasant welcome. Of course we wanted to take the Bf 109 Ks… He asked us for our papers indicating our various type ratings but after scrutinizing them, he handed them back with a shake of the head and simply said: "sorry, I can't give you any K-4s. You've only flown the G-10, so take the G-10s!"
We tried to explain to him that whether they were the G or K variant, they were still Messerschmitt 109s and any mods were almost certainly to be of a minor nature, unlikely to impact on the handling qualities of the aircraft. He did not appear particularly convinced by our arguments, but I noted how keenly he eyed us smoking our American cigarettes. These were retrieved from US prisoners and our Spieß always had them in his stocks. As naturally as possible, I offered the Major one of these cigarettes. His face lit up. Just for good measure, I left a barely started packet on his desk. He thanked me and told us that he was going to see what he ''could do". In the minute that followed, more packets of cigarettes changed hands and in this way we soon had authorization to take the Messerschmitt Bf 109 K-4s!
We went to select our Messerschmitts in the company of the line chief, who asked us what our destination airfield was. The fuel crisis had also reached this field. Our aircraft were fueled with enough for thirty minutes flying time, which was largely sufficient to get back to Kleinkarolinenfeld. On the other hand the armament magazines were empty. We were given parachutes and life jackets. Suddenly we saw a car drawing up and out climbed the depot commander. He told us in a voice bereft of emotion that he was not sorry that we were taking the 109 Ks. Then he read the text of a teleprinter message he had just received. The presence of American troops and tanks was reported ten kilometers from Bad Wörishofen and he was ordered to immediately destroy all the aircraft housed on the airfield. The Major explained to us that the 109s were easier to blow up than the 190s, as they carried as standard a delayed-action 3 kg explosive charge in the fuselage housed next to the fuselage fuel tank. We smoked a last cigarette together with the officer. The imminent debacle seemed more of a relief to him than anything else. He had fought during the First World War and had been wounded but was of the opinion that the disaster befalling our country was of a much more serious nature on this occasion. He hoped that we would soon be back among our families and that we would not risk our lives pointlessly. He started up his car and drove off.
My first takeoff in the Bf 109 K held no surprises. The aircraft was poorly trimmed and the compass was not functioning, which meant that I had to follow my comrades blindly. A typical product of our war industry in 1945: the instruments were incorrectly calibrated and there was nothing coming through the oxygen mask. Fortunately our flight level did not exceed 1,000 meters. We all landed without incident at Kleinkarolinenfeld. Happily enough the brakes worked…
Bad Wörishofen is about 70km west of Munich. Kleinkarolinenfeld is about the same distance sse of Munich.
The pilots were from III./JG27.
'Remains (at) 1,98 boost pressure increases' is what it says. Regardless, the DB 605ASCM was making 2000ps w/o the required 1,98 ata boost. And it made more ps from sea level to 6000 meters. It was also introduced in October/44. G-6/AS, some Mtt-Reg G-10's had them.
Remains as K-4.
OKL, GdJ-Grp. Qu-, Br. B. Nr. 1561/45 g. Kdos, from 20 March 1945. The document, partially reproduced by Zobel and Mathmann, notes that four Gruppen employed on the Western Front, two from JG 27 and JG 53 each, are to increase manifold pressure to 1,98 ata (1,98 Ladedruckerhöh.).
DB 605AM 1944 C3 + MW-50 1800
DB 605AS 1944 B4 1435
DB 605ASM 1944 C3 + MW-50 1800
2000hp motors did not appear til 1945.
Really.. where did you get your information on the DB 605ASC(M)? Would be very interested in seeing that.
Kurfürst - DB 605 DB/DC <- shows the 2000ps 1,98 ata engine introduced in 1944.
Kurfürst - DB 605 DB/DC <- shows the 2000ps 1,98 ata engine introduced in 1944.
When this came up at LEMB the eloquent members decided to look up fuel deliveries to specific fields, given their records of whom was stationed precisely where, and when. Using this measure you can trace at least if there is any C3 fuel even available at a given airfield to operate DC or ASC motors. They found in most cases, a resounding no. Just physically impossible. Except for two airfields.
It's only conjecture, but the final conclusion after quite some discussion and typically remarkable references, it was possible, although by no means certain that two airfields operated up to around 150 divided among C3 fuelled 1.98ata 109 fighters in mixed groups with Fw190s at any one time between Dec44 and the end of the war. As in anything else using C3 was either an Fw190A or demonstrably running 109s at 1.7ata, in the entire Luftwaffe. Their opinion was something like 35 at one time, effectively a superfluous side project in deployment.
Look, RLM, IG Farben, everyone else, they specified, use B4 on fighters. We'd rather you used kerosine, but if you have to use B4. C3 really for development only. That's the clear and laid out message I get from reading their stuff. I understand this is real opinionated and please excuse me if I'm being ignorant in some way.
It's only conjecture, but the final conclusion after quite some discussion and typically remarkable references, it was possible, although by no means certain that two airfields operated up to around 150 divided among C3 fuelled 1.98ata 109 fighters in mixed groups with Fw190s at any one time between Dec44 and the end of the war. As in anything else using C3 was either an Fw190A or demonstrably running 109s at 1.7ata, in the entire Luftwaffe. Their opinion was something like 35 at one time, effectively a superfluous side project in deployment.
Look, RLM, IG Farben, everyone else, they specified, use B4 on fighters. We'd rather you used kerosine, but if you have to use B4. C3 really for development only. That's the clear and laid out message I get from reading their stuff. I understand this is real opinionated and please excuse me if I'm being ignorant in some way.
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Hello Tante Ju!
Thanks, I was aware on that docu. Problems are, 20 Macrh 45 was much too late for LW, Germany's enemies were already over Rhine and Oder and in Germany there was much chaos around. So what was the real situation, were there DB 605DCs, enough C-3 fuel and enough right kind of spark plugs in same place at same time for implementation? As Vanir wrote, it seems that usually not.
Juha
Thanks, I was aware on that docu. Problems are, 20 Macrh 45 was much too late for LW, Germany's enemies were already over Rhine and Oder and in Germany there was much chaos around. So what was the real situation, were there DB 605DCs, enough C-3 fuel and enough right kind of spark plugs in same place at same time for implementation? As Vanir wrote, it seems that usually not.
Juha
And yet the allies estimated that 2/3 of German aviation fuel production at the end of the war was C3 grade. I can't find the report,it's probably on Kurfurst's sight somewhere. I linked to it,or quoted it in some other thread here.
Cheers
Steve
Hello Stona
one must remember that there were lot of 190As and Gs around in 45 and they needed C3 also the last recce planes.
Juha
one must remember that there were lot of 190As and Gs around in 45 and they needed C3 also the last recce planes.
Juha
A spec sheet dated Dec 1944. Did you forget that the use of 1.98ata was banned in Jan 1945?
