Realistic max speeds WW2 fighters / Speeds of the late 109s

[davparlr]

thank you kindly for your detailed post!

Back to the late 109s for a hot second. Can we come up with some 'modern' numbers for the G-5/AS, G-6/AS G-14/AS? What speeds at what altitude? Pretty sure with the larger supercharger, best performance above 20,000 ft. I am pretty sure the later /AS planes had MW50, right? Does 350mph at sea level sound about right? Then what about with MW50? Might as well ask for the speeds of a regular G-6/G-14 with and without MW50 while I am at it. I am checking performance numbers in a set of wargame rules.

Thanks in advance!

The problem with German aircraft is limit data available. Many Allied aircraft have a good assortment of test data, especially the P-51. There are a few sources of Bf data as noted in the Kurfurst site and there may be experts out there that have more than is available on the internet. Hopefully, they can provide good data. Also, some interpolations can be made from known aircraft to update to known power without test results. This, of course can be somewhat subjective. Good luck on your quest.

 

[kettbo]

Some time now for me to poke around the Kurfurst site

Kurfürst - Daimler-Benz A.G. - Horizontalgeschwindigkeiten mit MW 50 Leistung Me 109 GJ+FX.

G-6/AS looks to me like 690kmph at 7000m, 560 at 0m, 2800rpm 1.7ata, curve shows w/MW50


Kurfürst - Bf 109G-6 / DB 605 A

G-6 looks like 645 at 6500m, 520 at 0m, 2800 rpm at 1.42ata

Kurfürst - Leistungen Me 109 G-14/U4 mit DB 605 AM u. ASM.

G-14/U4 AM engine: 652at 5km, 647 at 6km, 557 at Sea Level 2800 rpm 1.685?? boost portly 3501kg, 2x13mm, mk 108 and 20mm cannon pods, ammo, mw50
G-14/U4 ASM engine: 668 at 7.5km, 550 at Sea Level, 2800 rpm 1.685 ata 3546 kg !!!, 2x13mm, mk 108 and 20mm cannon pods, ammo, mw50

this will give me food for thought

 

[Juha]

Hello George
I updated my message #325 with JG 3, 4, 6, 53 77 info, still not bothered with Stabs, so you can see how common were various 109 subtypes in the West at the beginning of Dec 44.

Juha

 

[Ratsel]

VB. 109. 00064
22.1.44
Blatt: 2

Daimler-Benz DB 605 ASC M/W-50 1800 PS 1944 VH = 6,9 km

581 kph at 0 m height
690 kph at 6000 m height

 

[Denniss]

Kurfürst - Leistungen Me 109 G-14/U4 mit DB 605 AM u. ASM.[/url]

G-14/U4 AM engine: 652at 5km, 647 at 6km, 557 at Sea Level 2800 rpm 1.685?? boost portly 3501kg, 2x13mm, mk 108 and 20mm cannon pods, ammo, mw50
G-14/U4 ASM engine: 668 at 7.5km, 550 at Sea Level, 2800 rpm 1.685 ata 3546 kg !!!, 2x13mm, mk 108 and 20mm cannon pods, ammo, mw50

this will give me food for thought

Please note these are calculated values for an overweight G-14 with gondola guns. Influences from Mach effect are not counted-in.
AFAIR 1:1.685 was the prop/engine ratio of the reduction gear.

 

[GregP]

I believe I was asked in here about the empty weight of Steve Hinton's P-51D Mustang.

Steve says the last time he personally weighed it, it came out to 6,980 pounds. Then he painted it and he figures it now weighs about 6,950 to 7,000 pounds empty. For a typical ride with a passenger, figure about 120 gallons of gasoline (722.4 pounds) and about 12 gallons of oil (90 pounds). Figure a 185 pound pilot and a 190 pound passenger and you get a startup weight of about 8,137 pounds.

That means my estimate of 8000 - 8500 depending on fuel and passengers is about right. With 184 gallons in the wing tanks (full fuel) the weight works out to 8,522 pounds.

Just FYI.

The Me 109G was similarly light when we flew it. It also had the guns and armor plate removed. Can't remove much fuel from a 109 as it didn't have much to start with.

So both of these planes fly about 650 pounds lighter than normal ... or so.

 

[Milosh]

banned but some gruppes ignored. none-the less, it was there in 44. look at the lists for Bodenplatte, units using 1,98 ata K's.

Can we conclude Ratsel that since you didn't come back with any proofs that that all those units with K-4s participating in Bodenplatte used 1.98ata boost, that all those units with K-4s didn't use 1.98ata boost?

 

[stona]

Similar lack of response to my post,358,regarding the engine in Petzschler's yellow 5 (W.Nr.130296). Its was a DB 605 D,as Milosh originally posted.
A far wiser man than me once wrote;
"Don't look for a zebra when there's a donkey in the pasture"
Cheers
Steve

 

[Ratsel]

draw your own conclusions, cause the snow is falling, and I'm going out to fly my 1:5 scale Me 109G. much more fun.

but Milosh, go ask that question @ 12oclockhigh or LEMB.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Because flying a 5:1 scale with a remote control is like flying the real thing huh?

 

[Ratsel]

Because flying a 5:1 scale with a remote control is like flying the real thing huh?

ahhh that was fun.

to answer, well I know some real pilots who couldn't fly these scale models to save their lives. crash-n-burn everytime. my cousin took me up in a Cessna 150E(? some side by side anyways) and gave me the controls to try. easy as eating warm apple pie. I play IL-2 also, awesome flight mechanics in that game. pretty realistic.

anyways I seriously do not know what the point is, forgive me please. I just wonder about all those USN/USAF/NASA flight simulators are for?

 

[Milosh]

draw your own conclusions, cause the snow is falling, and I'm going out to fly my 1:5 scale Me 109G. much more fun.

but Milosh, go ask that question @ 12oclockhigh or LEMB.

You fill r/c at night?

You posted the above post at 12:53PM, which would make the time in Germany as 6:53PM. The sun has been set for almost 3 hours.

 

[pbfoot]

ahhh that was fun.

to answer, well I know some real pilots who couldn't fly these scale models to save their lives. crash-n-burn everytime. my cousin took me up in a Cessna 150E(? some side by side anyways) and gave me the controls to try. easy as eating warm apple pie. I play IL-2 also, awesome flight mechanics in that game. pretty realistic.

anyways I seriously do not know what the point is, forgive me please. I just wonder about all those USN/USAF/NASA flight simulators are for?

Flying isn't real hard what is hard is when something goes wromg and you don't have the option of putting it on pause to read the operating instructions . il2 is a kiddies simulator if the truth be told

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I just wonder about all those USN/USAF/NASA flight simulators are for?

Are You talking about the multi million full motion sims or the ones used for instrument training?

 

[Ratsel]

' il2 is a kiddies simulator if the truth be told '

patch it up to 4.101m and its no longer a kiddies game, and wait for 4.11. ha! good luck! there is some pretty sophisticated flight mechanics thanks to the mod community. its not a kids game anymore. also... play it ON realistic with those patchs.

Are You talking about the multi million full motion sims or the ones used for instrument training?

yup.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

' il2 is a kiddies simulator if the truth be told '

patch it up to 4.101m and its no longer a kiddies game, and wait for 4.11. ha! good luck! there is some pretty sophisticated flight mechanics thanks to the mod community. its not a kids game anymore. also... play it ON realistic with those patchs.


yup.

They provide military pilots with numerical situational awareness that helps them when they fly the real thing and also provides instrument training scenarios to cover emergencies that cannot be simulated while flying the real aircraft, primarily for safety reasons.

As far as gaming sims - we've had these discussions before. Not even close to flying a real aircraft with regards to physical and mental requirements. Some of the "numbers" may be very realistic but I've taken "gamers" up to fly with me and were sick within minutes flying through calm air and lost all perception of where they were.

Still a game....

 

[Kryten]

' il2 is a kiddies simulator if the truth be told '

patch it up to 4.101m and its no longer a kiddies game, and wait for 4.11. ha! good luck! there is some pretty sophisticated flight mechanics thanks to the mod community. its not a kids game anymore. also... play it ON realistic with those patchs.

yup.

No offence Ratsel but il2 is just a game, not a real flight simulator, I also play online with this on the WOP server, upgraded to Ultrapack3 RC4 standard, and its still just a game, even on full switch the engine management is a joke and the damage modelling is nothing but primitive, flight dynamics are some computer programmers notion based on limited information and in most cases blind guesses!
I flew gliders for a number of years and IL2's not much like flying in reality, not even in a glider, no g-force, no peripheral vision, no wind shear no feel through the seat etc etc etc, bit like the F1 simulators, fun but nothing like driving a real single seat race car!
Oh and its not difficult to fly a plane thats allready airborne, whole different game when you have to land it or take off though!

 

[Kryten]

They provide military pilots with numerical situational awareness that helps them when they fly the real thing and also provides instrument training scenarios to cover emergencies that cannot be simulated while flying the real aircraft, primarily for safety reasons.

As far as gaming sims - we've had these discussions before. Not even close to flying a real aircraft with regards to physical and mental requirements. Some of the "numbers" may be very realistic but I've taken "gamers" up to fly with me and were sick within minutes flying through calm air and lost all perception of where they were.

Still a game....

Oh yeah, a flight in a Tutor two years ago made me realise maybe an F16 wasn't for me, two barrel rolls and a split s left my head swimming!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Ah here we go again. Someone who thinks that playing a game is like flying a real plane.

Let me guess Ratsel, after playing Il-2 you think you could go take a real 109 out right?

 

[Ratsel]

Ah here we go again. Someone who thinks that playing a game is like flying a real plane.

Let me guess Ratsel, after playing Il-2 you think you could go take a real 109 out right?

never compared the two. don't wanna either. but since you asked, take off and fly, yah. land, um no. I was talking the flight mechanics of the game, which in this day and age, is not hard to mimic to the real thing..

why you guys come to the assuming that I'm comapring a game to the actual dogfighting of WWII is beyond me..

but the question remains, why can't some real pilots fly some of these toys? flight principle are the same.. some of the finer scale ones are exact same as their big brothers.