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Problem may have been that there wasn't one Japan, there may have been at least two and maybe 3. And the American diplomats were not negotiating with the Japanese Army/nationalists.
What face saving could be done to justify giving back that territory?
Problem may have been that there wasn't one Japan, there may have been at least two and maybe 3.
I wonder if FDR's advisors and the American negotiators understood this. Did the US offer any face saving way out for the Japanese?
I remember my negotiating courses at university, skills and learning I use to today, especially the importance of preparation and understanding any cultural limitations. I would like to think the US consulted with whatever experts on Japan were available to them, and that the State Department approached FDR with something along the lines of "in Japanese culture face savings is very important, the Japanese government needs a way out that satisfies both the pride of the people and does not provoke their military from executing a coup." and in reply, rather than not understanding this nuance, FDR said "I fully understand, I'm briefed by our Japan experts, but f#ck em, we'll crush their asses."
Not listening to Grew does seem to be an error. He told Washington about the Pearl Harbour attack. Perhaps this was another chance for Japan to avoid war, if in Nov 1941 the US announces we know about your plans to attack Pearl Harbour. This should stir up some internal arguments in Tokyo as the element of surprise and plan to prolong negotiations as the strike is prepared is gone.The way the State Dept essentially froze Ambassador Grew out of the process meant that they couldn't benefit from his insights into Japanese outlooks.
Not listening to Grew does seem to be an error. He told Washington about the Pearl Harbour attack. Perhaps this was another chance for Japan to avoid war, if in Nov 1941 the US announces we know about your plans to attack Pearl Harbour. This should stir up some internal arguments in Tokyo as the element of surprise and plan to prolong negotiations as the strike is prepared is gone.
It depends on what the USA does from Jan 1941 onwards.I'm unsure how willing they would have been with a longer period of foreknowledge.
It depends on what the USA does from Jan 1941 onwards.
January 27, 1941, Grew secretly cabled the State Department with rumors passed on by the Peruvian Minister to Japan: "Japan military forces planned a surprise mass attack at Pearl Harbor in case of 'trouble' with the United States." Grew's report was provided to Admiral Harold R. Stark, Chief of Naval Operations, and Admiral Husband Kimmel, Commander-in-chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, but it was discounted by everyone involved in Washington, D.C., and Hawaii.
If from March 1941, for example the USA begins preparing Pearl Harbor for a major attack, with significant patrols and war readiness, thus demonstrating that any IJN move towards Hawaii would be a near guaranteed disaster, then I can't see Japan going ahead with it.
I also think such foreknowledge if taken seriously might have expedited USN rearmament.I didn't realize the foreknowledge was that far-sighted. Japan most likely wouldn't have attacked at PH. That would call Yamamoto's first resignation threat. Who would blink on that issue?
You can order (put on paper) whatever you want.For example, of the Essex class carriers, eleven were ordered from July to Nov 1940, but then none others until after Pearl Harbor - more than a whole year without any orders for new carrier construction
Those 11 Essex class ordered in 1940 were due to be completed between April 1944 and late 1946. Only 5 laid down by PH (2 about a week before). 2 more ordered Dec 1941, 10 In Aug 1942 and 3 in 1943.I also think such foreknowledge if taken seriously might have expedited USN rearmament.
For example, of the Essex class carriers, eleven were ordered from July to Nov 1940, but then none others until after Pearl Harbor - more than a whole year without any orders for new carrier construction. Mind you, eleven Essex class plus the Yorktowns, Lexingtons, plus Wasp and Ranger would already be a massive, world leading carrier fleet.
I also think such foreknowledge if taken seriously might have expedited USN rearmament.
For example, of the Essex class carriers, eleven were ordered from July to Nov 1940, but then none others until after Pearl Harbor - more than a whole year without any orders for new carrier construction. Mind you, eleven Essex class plus the Yorktowns, Lexingtons, plus Wasp and Ranger would already be a massive, world leading carrier fleet.
The U.S. was not viewed by most of the world at that time to be as "fearsome" as it has become since WWII. The U.S. Navy was respectably powerful but the U.S. Army was still tiny. It ranked 17th or 18th in the world in 1939, being about the size of Portugal's army of 150,000-200,000. It was growing, however, and had reached about one million in 1941, but the U.S.'s potential adversaries calculated it would not be dangerous for another 2 or 3 years, at least. This was a strategic mistake on their part. In any case, the political divisions within the U.S. (e.g., America First Committee and the like, plus general isolationism) seem to be signaling a weak and divided country that would not interfere with the totalitarian ambitions of the Axis powers, at least not for the foreseeable future. Only in trade and commerce could the U.S. put any kind of real pressure on the Axis (re: the steel and oil embargo of Japan.) Thus, Japan really didn't have to offer up anything in the "negotiations." The Japanese military (who were the ones really in charge) in 1940-1941 knew that the "peace talks" were just theater to buy some more time for preparations. Isolationism in the U.S. died an instant death, of course, when the first bomb struck Pearl Harbor.We know what Japan wanted. But what were Japan's negotiators offering America in return?
"Give us what we want or we'll kick your ass in war" doesn't really work when you're speaking to the largest industrial power on earth.
That was the problem with the U.S. intelligence "organization" in 1941. It was fragmented and a realistic, in-depth analysis of all intelligence really didn't take place, as there was no infrastructure in the US government to actually do it. Thus, the US command could not separate "the signal from the noise" from the intelligence it had.The vote to continue conscription passing by only 1 vote in 1941 was inevitably interpreted by some that the US was not really willing to fight, along with anything else that could be fitted to this conclusion. With a still peacetime press there were plenty of stories of US unreadiness, unwillingness and failures.
The Tripartite Pact (Written in English, the US soon had a copy) from 27 September 1940 committed Japan to attack the US if the US attacked Germany and/or Italy and vice versa. Lots of people were sure the US would enter the European war "soon", thinks like the transfer of destroyers, Lend Lease etc. The way Britain let the US lead negotiations with Japan, trying to convince Japan they were going to fight together. Better to start the fighting yourself that be on the receiving end.
Taranto Raid 11 November 1940, a Japanese naval officer was allowed to do an inspection.
A Japanese nightmare was a collapse into civil war resulting in Japan being colonised. The level of violence in Japanese politics made the possibility seem very real. As of 1940 the existing Japanese leadership was tied to the China War, they would have to go before a change in policy but given the radicals, both civil and military, a change in war policy would definitely result in violence and assassinations. The Japanese rule from below concept, "I am their leader, I must follow them."
Whether the US could or should enter the European War was a live political issue in 1941, if the US announces Japan is thinking of attacking Pearl Harbor there will be strong demands to prove it, where is the evidence, wonder what will happen if the answer is Peruvian Ambassador or that the idea has been dismissed by US military officials.
1) the IJN could not put a large carrier fleet into Hawaiian waters except from the mandated islands, according to intelligence.
2) Pearl had enough search aircraft to guard this approach.
3) Pearl Harbor had 161 out of the USAAF total of 1,618 fighters at the end of November 1941 (the Philippines had 228, Latin America 231 according to the USAAF Statistical digest). Pearl had several radar sets available, plus the radars on USN ships.
4) Until Shokaku and Zuikaku could be considered operational the carrier raid from the north was 1 IJN carrier.
5) Until at sea refuelling was possible the carriers coming from the north would have minimal escorts.
6) The possibility of an airstrike was always on the table, the point was how probable, how much to tie Pearl Harbor up on that possibility, cutting into the time and material needed for other things like training.
7) The "best" use for the IJN carriers was covering the landings in South East Asia (like the IJN Naval General Staff wanted) or waiting to counter USN moves.
8) The known IJN war plan was to attrition the USN as it advanced, the carriers and most battleships in home waters waiting to engage the advancing USN fitted into this.
9) Pearl Harbor was attacked by submarines.
The IJN fleet had to learn refuelling at sea to make it, using civilian tankers which tended to require rounding up every morning, and the Naval General Staff spent a lot of time refusing to allocate enough tankers to enable 6 carriers to go.
It should be remembered that during 1940 and 1941 there were plenty of IJN officers prepared to, in effect, state in Japan versus the world bet on Japan sort of attitudes. There were all sorts of rumours about what might happen and plenty of warnings that had turned out to be false.
If I understand Edwin Layton correctly the warning was the Peruvian minister had been told "from many sources, including a Japanese source, that in the event of trouble's breaking out between the United States and Japan, the Japanese intended to make a surprise attack against Pearl Harbor with all their strength and employing all their equipment."
Admiral Yamamoto had handed his idea to attack Pearl Harbor to the Navy Minister on 7 January 1941, as part of a 9 page report called "Views on preparations for War". It was a series of suggestions. The idea it was a leak is implied because Grew reported the information on 27 January, three weeks after Yamamoto reported his ideas. Yamamoto advocated a total change in strategy, from allowing the US to advance, to seeking out the US including an air attack on Hawaii and a submarine blockade. A copy of Yamamoto's idea had gone to Admiral Onishi for study and evaluation. Onishi came back 6 weeks later, so 3 weeks after Grew's message, to report the operations was feasible if surprise was achieved. Commander Genda then spent 2 months to work out the tactical plan. In other words Yamamoto's paper was a suggestion paper not a detailed plan, about what the IJN should evaluate as initial war plans. After apparently being widely leaked and also exaggerated when the plan was only known by 3 senior IJN Admirals there were no further leaks for the next 10 to 11 months.
Now to evaluate Grew's message, all strength and all equipment, if true must mean an invasion. The rumour does not say a major raid, it says all out attack. It also says Grew is reporting second hand and that the majority of the sources are other diplomats. Ever done the pass the message test, where a chain of people whisper a message to each other and you observe the difference between the first and final versions of the message? Already, if we are to believe it was a real leak of Yamamoto calling for an air strike, it has escalated to most of the combined fleet supporting a major invasion. A USN evaluation talks of disposition of Japanese Naval and *Army* forces, how "the present" disposition rules it out, absolutely correct.
Layton notes that a Japanese author had published the idea of an air attack on Pearl Harbor in the mid 1930s, apparently in response to the USN fleet problem that demonstrated the concept.
The famous things are going to happen automatically message gave the cut off date as 29 November 1941, the 30th was a Sunday, so some of the US Army intelligence people put out a prediction of an attack on the 30th, when it did not come it meant future predictions were treated with greater reserve.
As another example on the 23rd of September 1941 the Japanese consulate in Buenos Aires sent a message to Tokyo stating it had received copies of Italian maps of the Panama Canal Zone and was sending them by courier to Japan. This message was translated by the US on 22 October. Admittedly the message seems to suggest the gaining of the maps was fortuitous, not as part of a (much) earlier request. Should Panama have been alerted, and if so in what way and what should they do? One hypothetical US Japan war scenario begins with Japanese merchant ships blowing themselves up while in the Panama Canal locks.