Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Cuban Crisis: AD-5S, and sometime S2F-3 ... pre-MacNamara designations that we still used then.What aircraft?
What years? I was at Boca Chica 1971-74, doing training device support for VF101, and working part time for the base fueling contractor. Every time Hot Pad returned from a scramble we'd get an urgent call to get the birds topped off, muy pronto! If Fidel's boys were active and Willy Victor was out and about, Hot Pad would be scrambling repeatedly, and I would spend my entire shift running back and forth between Hot Pad and the fuel farm. Key West was a favorite destination for cross country "proficiency" flights, and on weekends the transient line often could pass for a military aviation museum.
It seems that there was quite a variation in opinion as to the exact lethality of the SA-2. If I recall somebody here (possibly you) mentioned the SA-2's radar beam was fairly agile and that might have led to the conclusion that the missile would be as well. Others didn't seem to have such pessimism about the capability (SAC seemed more confident).Fannum, it looks like you're a little ahead of yourself here. Sure SA2s and Nikes were putting in their appearance circa 1960 (FG Powers), but they were far from an impenetrable shield for at least another decade, if ever.
Yeah, and the range of the interceptors were generally longer than the missiles and they could make multiple attacks.And the Bulls and the Bears and the Badgers were always lurking out there to send their standoff missiles through the pores in the sieve.
That's why I mentioned the exercises from 1958-1962. From what I recall the Hercules (possibly the Hawk which came online in the summer of 1960) were used in these tests and it seemed that the bombers were able to make it through that even at altitude in some cases: Interestingly, I vaguely remember there being something that indicated an assumption that the Hawk would render fighters useless without some form of ECM (although it's capabilities eclipsed the SA-2) and this probably would make it fairly close to equivalent to the SA-3 (which came online in 1961).Again, this thread was based on late 50s
While SAC's mission was predominantly nuclear-deterrence/armageddon, they were able to do conventional bombing with some of the aircraft, and the initial plans for Arc Light One was for a low-altitude bombing attack on Kep Airfield. The other attacks would have been much of the rest you said (as well as going full-arson on the cities of North Vietnam).a total revolution occurred in the SAC mission ... both translating to a non-nuclear, middle ground between tactical and strategic bombing. Carpet bombing was confined to the South due to the massive AAA and SAM threats up North, and initial high losses there. Also, politics kept us away from the most beneficial targets, the air bases, SAM stocks, ports, power production, etc.
Oh really? That's pretty cool. I'm surprised the USAF didn't develop more anti-radiation missiles. There was the GAM-67, but it was subsonic (there was technically a proposed crossbow but it was cancelled). The USN seemed to have two designs, one which became the Shrike, and the Corvus. I figure the Corvus predated the Shrike and could have probably been in service a little earlier.I was part of the USN Iron Hand project, precursor to better publicized AF Wild Weasel.
You've got some good information, Zipper. However, I'd suggest laying this all out with REALISTIC time lines, especially when these promised advances were truly mission capable. War games always seem to emphasize the GAMES aspects, and in retrospect we invariably find that combos of optimism/pessimism in the ROE undermine the project. Also, politics are seldom a factor in the games. During my career, we NEVER lost a war game, but in the last 75 years, we've sure lost a LOT of wars!!It seems that there was quite a variation in opinion as to the exact lethality of the SA-2. If I recall somebody here (possibly you) mentioned the SA-2's radar beam was fairly agile and that might have led to the conclusion that the missile would be as well. Others didn't seem to have such pessimism about the capability (SAC seemed more confident).
Yeah, and the range of the interceptors were generally longer than the missiles and they could make multiple attacks.
That's why I mentioned the exercises from 1958-1962. From what I recall the Hercules (possibly the Hawk which came online in the summer of 1960) were used in these tests and it seemed that the bombers were able to make it through that even at altitude in some cases: Interestingly, I vaguely remember there being something that indicated an assumption that the Hawk would render fighters useless without some form of ECM (although it's capabilities eclipsed the SA-2) and this probably would make it fairly close to equivalent to the SA-3 (which came online in 1961).
While SAC's mission was predominantly nuclear-deterrence/armageddon, they were able to do conventional bombing with some of the aircraft, and the initial plans for Arc Light One was for a low-altitude bombing attack on Kep Airfield. The other attacks would have been much of the rest you said (as well as going full-arson on the cities of North Vietnam).
Oh really? That's pretty cool. I'm surprised the USAF didn't develop more anti-radiation missiles. There was the GAM-67, but it was subsonic (there was technically a proposed crossbow but it was cancelled). The USN seemed to have two designs, one which became the Shrike, and the Corvus. I figure the Corvus predated the Shrike and could have probably been in service a little earlier.
So this is where HARM "fire and forget" anti radiation missiles came from? Bravo Zulu!Following up on previous post. The system posted before I wanted it to, and wouldn't let me edit. We had the SAM site sensors in pretty good shape quickly, but needed to get a stand off missile to take out the site. The whiz kids at places like Saunders developed the guidance to our feedback, but we had no funding for a missile. We'd scour the Nellis and China Lake storage bunkers for obsolete missiles, and tack on our gear to test. Bullpups and Mavericks were too dear stateside, and we'd use most anything we could fit on racks and cobble a guidance package to.
By my time, the ratio was rather heavily weighted towards USMC squadrons from Cherry Pt and Beaufort, and they would show up with some pretty ragged aircraft and kit. By Jan, 1972 Navy F4Bs were nowhere to be seen, but the Marine squadrons were still showing up with them for Hot Pad into 1973-74. Strapped for cash, USMC would take advantage of Hot Pad maintenance priority to prop up their tired old birds. They would fly their tiredest old hangar queens down, put the worst pair on Ready One, declare them down, and send them off to AIMD for priority NAVY FUNDED repair. After a couple weeks, all patched up, the initial birds would get rotated back to Homeplate and get replaced by new candidates for resuscitation. They would also show up with unairworthy AAMs, get them swapped for "good" ones, then rotate the good ones home with the repaired jets. Scuttlebut had it that NAS CO complained about this to AirLant, and was told to eat it.Would rotate duty from East Coast F-4 squadrons, mostly from Oceana and I believe on occasion, MCAS Cherry Point.
That's a good point.You've got some good information, Zipper. However, I'd suggest laying this all out with REALISTIC time lines, especially when these promised advances were truly mission capable.
That's a great line...Remember that Press Releases and Capability Brochures are really just bullshit you can fold.
I thought Vietnam saw them used to considerable effect...When was the first appearance of effective guided bombs? How about First Gulf War.
By my time, the ratio was rather heavily weighted towards USMC squadrons from Cherry Pt and Beaufort, and they would show up with some pretty ragged aircraft and kit. By Jan, 1972 Navy F4Bs were nowhere to be seen, but the Marine squadrons were still showing up with them for Hot Pad into 1973-74. Strapped for cash, USMC would take advantage of Hot Pad maintenance priority to prop up their tired old birds. They would fly their tiredest old hangar queens down, put the worst pair on Ready One, declare them down, and send them off to AIMD for priority NAVY FUNDED repair. After a couple weeks, all patched up, the initial birds would get rotated back to Homeplate and get replaced by new candidates for resuscitation. They would also show up with unairworthy AAMs, get them swapped for "good" ones, then rotate the good ones home with the repaired jets. Scuttlebut had it that NAS CO complained about this to AirLant, and was told to eat it.
Somehow, I wound up being unable to either reply or edit. Had to sign out of everything, reboot computer, and now WW2Aircraft seems to work again. All other programs still worked fine. Hmmm!fannum
Uh, you didn't type anything: I think you mentioned that you ended up having that happen before when the system caused the message to appear before you were finished.
I think you might have fallen prey to the same glitch twice.
define "effective"When was the first appearance of effective guided bombs? How about First Gulf War.
That's unusual, but at least it works nowSomehow, I wound up being unable to either reply or edit. Had to sign out of everything, reboot computer, and now WW2Aircraft seems to work again.
Go for it, it's never stopped me lolI have some Hot Pad/USMC Air comments