SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I may not understand what you said but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
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SAC's Fighters
- Thread starter Zipper730
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Thumpalumpacus
Major
GrauGeist said:
Just expanding on what the Grey Ghost wrote, not arguing against it, nor placing MIRVs in the 50s.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Love a bit of Cabaret Voltaire.
You wine lover, you.
- Thread starter
- #25
Seems that the F-101 was developed at a rather rapid rate of speed.
While it's generally established fact that the F-101 plane was designed to do the F-88's mission but with greater range, IFR and supersonic performance: The question was how much in common they had.
Some people seemed to be under the impression that the F-101 started out with the F-88 as a basic point and then evolved off of that; others that it was to be a substantially different design off the bat: It seemed that the link I put in does seem to indicate it was much more the latter than the former
While it's generally established fact that the F-101 plane was designed to do the F-88's mission but with greater range, IFR and supersonic performance: The question was how much in common they had.
Some people seemed to be under the impression that the F-101 started out with the F-88 as a basic point and then evolved off of that; others that it was to be a substantially different design off the bat: It seemed that the link I put in does seem to indicate it was much more the latter than the former
McDonnell was better than most at taking a current design as a starting point in the form of "lessons learned" and applying them to "a substantially different design off the bat" in a revolutionary, rather than evolutionary way. Witness Phantom I to Banshee and Voodoo to Phantom II, with a little Demon thrown in.
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- Thread starter
- #27
X
XBe02Drvr
, That is true, I gotta say the F2H looked way cooler than the FH. Interestingly, some sources point to an earlier origin to the F-101 design. Regardless, what you said is correct.
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SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
The Blackhawks didn't have any problems with them.
I don't see anyone mentioning that by then, interceptor fighter were becoming a thing of the past. The cost, speed and efficiency of SAMs worldwide had the writing on the wall. Escort fighters would be useless against them.
Also, Tactical Air Command had a totally different role, intended for regional, brush fire wars with light and fighter bombers. Also note, that with our Nikes, etc., the role of Air Defense Command was changing. Fighters were being sent to ANG and Reserves.
My Dad was attached to SAC at the time, and our bases had a base squadron of T-33s and F-86s for pilot proficiency, TDY trips, etc ... much cheaper than firing up a B-47.
OK, with full disclosure, I was a turncoat, going into Naval Aviation. Note that the AF instituted around three times the fighter projects from '45-60 than the Navy, for all kinds of specialized roles, many only speculative and never realized.
Naval Aviation, being less generously funded and having limited space aboard a carrier for multiple types, meant all a/c had to be versatile and multi roled. You can list around a dozen Navy designs adopted by the USAF, including A3D, F4H, AD, A-7, P2V, etc. while the only AF design used by NavAir were small quantities of the F-86/FJ2, which supplemented the F9F-6 Cougars (and actually began with the Navy FJ!)
Also, Tactical Air Command had a totally different role, intended for regional, brush fire wars with light and fighter bombers. Also note, that with our Nikes, etc., the role of Air Defense Command was changing. Fighters were being sent to ANG and Reserves.
My Dad was attached to SAC at the time, and our bases had a base squadron of T-33s and F-86s for pilot proficiency, TDY trips, etc ... much cheaper than firing up a B-47.
OK, with full disclosure, I was a turncoat, going into Naval Aviation. Note that the AF instituted around three times the fighter projects from '45-60 than the Navy, for all kinds of specialized roles, many only speculative and never realized.
Naval Aviation, being less generously funded and having limited space aboard a carrier for multiple types, meant all a/c had to be versatile and multi roled. You can list around a dozen Navy designs adopted by the USAF, including A3D, F4H, AD, A-7, P2V, etc. while the only AF design used by NavAir were small quantities of the F-86/FJ2, which supplemented the F9F-6 Cougars (and actually began with the Navy FJ!)
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- Thread starter
- #31
Well, they would be if the USSR abandoned their bombers. While they developed ICBM's, they didn't get rid of their bombers.
Depends on the missile and the maneuverability of the fighter! The SA-2's weren't that hard to dodge actually (provided pilots realized they were coming).
The US deployed large numbers of Nike Ajax SAMs from 1954, followed by Nike Hercules and BOMARC
en.m.wikipedia.org
en.m.wikipedia.org
en.m.wikipedia.org
MIM-3 Nike Ajax - Wikipedia
Nike Hercules - Wikipedia
CIM-10 Bomarc - Wikipedia
1) Remember there were major military appropriation cutbacks in late '50s and cost effectiveness studies had ADC shift from fighter interceptors to Nikes.
2) I believe you're missing the point. Escort fighters were no protection for a bomber targeted by a SAM ala late '50s. Our F-4s in SEAsia could evade SAMs (but only with sufficient warning!) B-52s ... not so much!
GreenKnight121
Senior Airman
- 734
- Mar 16, 2014
I believe you mean "penetration fighters", not "interceptor fighters". Two different things.
"Interceptor fighters" are to defend against intruder aircraft, not to go intrude in another nation's airspace in company with bombers.
Interceptor fighters are still around (MiG-31), and were common in the 1960s (F-102, F-106, EE Lightning, Su-9/11/15, Tu-128 (Tu-28 Fiddler), MiG-25, and so on.
I meant interceptor fighters, which are the only reason you would need an escort fighter.
Yes, but by then they were leftovers and obsolete. Just ask ... were they ever used?
Fannum, it looks like you're a little ahead of yourself here. Sure SA2s and Nikes were putting in their appearance circa 1960 (FG Powers), but they were far from an impenetrable shield for at least another decade, if ever. And the Bulls and the Bears and the Badgers were always lurking out there to send their standoff missiles through the pores in the sieve. Thank God for interceptors, especially the long legged ones, even if they were in the hands of weekend warriors and the almighty SAGE! My state's ANG spent nearly two decades standing 24/7/365 Hot Pad in F94s, F89s, and F102s.
Note that I said "Also note, that with our Nikes, etc., the role of Air Defense Command was changing. Fighters were being sent to ANG and Reserves."
Most of all, the reason for this thread is "What happened to SAC's fighters" ... not anything related to the Air Defense role.
Basically, the budget/threat assessment was such that the ADC role had shifted fighter interceptors from front line to Guard/Reserves by '60, and in '57 when Dad was stationed at Barksdale and Offut, the bases were ringed with Nike Ajax batteries. Even with the Cuban Missile Crisis; during which I flew off the Wasp in the blockade.
Also, later in VF-31, our F-4s would periodically be rotated to 'Hot Pad' duty out of NAS Key West, escorting Bears in and out of Cuba.
btw - technically, we were backing up the F-106s housed in air conditioned hangars out of Homestead while we were just on an open ramp, operating out of marginally air conditioned house trailers. We prided ourselves by beating the ANG to the Tupolevs the vast majority of the time.
- Thread starter
- #38
The B-52 had very effective jammers. Admittedly the jammers from 1966 on were much more capable than earlier versions, but I'm not sure how much improvements came to radar systems during this period.
There were numerous exercises from 1958-1962 by SAC in which they would simulate tactics that would approximate what they'd do in a real mission: The idea was to use three-ship cells to maximize jamming effectiveness, which would fly overlapping dog-leg maneuvers combined with chaffing, decoys, and some dedicated jammer aircraft to overwhelm enemy air defenses. While more and more bomber missions were aiming at coming in down low, the fact is, that they weren't totally unwilling to come in high in some cases.
The fighters in those days seemed to have little if any ECM (some didn't seem to even have chaff dispensers -- I have no idea why they didn't put those in), but they could maneuver and could deal with fighters that the enemy would use.
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What aircraft?
What years? I was at Boca Chica 1971-74, doing training device support for VF101, and working part time for the base fueling contractor. Every time Hot Pad returned from a scramble we'd get an urgent call to get the birds topped off, muy pronto! If Fidel's boys were active and Willy Victor was out and about, Hot Pad would be scrambling repeatedly, and I would spend my entire shift running back and forth between Hot Pad and the fuel farm. Key West was a favorite destination for cross country "proficiency" flights, and on weekends the transient line often could pass for a military aviation museum.
Again, this thread was based on late 50s, and in the next 10-15 years, a total revolution occurred in the SAC mission ... both translating to a non-nuclear, middle ground between tactical and strategic bombing. Carpet bombing was confined to the South due to the massive AAA and SAM threats up North, and initial high losses there. Also, politics kept us away from the most beneficial targets, the air bases, SAM stocks, ports, power production, etc.
We were scrambling to learn the lessons form U-2 shootdowns, many over China when flown by Nationalists, Israelis, etc. It wasn't until '67 when we dared go North. I was part of the USN Iron Hand project, precursor to better publicized AF Wild Weasel. I still have concerns about the AF PR activities, all too often revealing a lot more that I felt then and now should have been kept secret.
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