SBD Dauntless Discussion Group

As you can no doubt guess, all of that works for me!

Rich

Really? Who would've thought?

When the USN needed the RN? I see. You mean when the IJN diverted five of it's fleet carriers to the Indian Ocean to attack the Royal Navy there, giving the USN vital breathing space to lick it's wounds after Pearl Harbour.

Is that enough?

No. In early 1943, just after the Japanese evacuated Guadalcanal, the USN had only one aircraft carrier, the USS Enterprise.

Roosevelt asked Churchill to release an aircraft carrier for a few months and put under direct command of Adm. Nimitz, to hold the line till the Saratoga and Essex became available.

That was really the only time the RN was in the SW Pacific untill late 1944.

It does not matter where it happened though. The Royal Navy may not have been in the South-West Pacific in force until 1944 but they still held up the Japanese. Or at least provided time wasting targets for the IJN.

1943 was quite a vital year for the Atlantic. I wouldn't have given up one carrier!

The Dixie Wing of the CAF is currently flying this gorgeous SBD-5.


From the Dixie Wing webpage, copyright rules apply.

If you visit their website at http://www.dixiewing.org/aircraft/sbd/ you can download several videos of flight ops.

My regards,

NAVAIR
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plan_D said:

1943 was quite a vital year for the Atlantic. I wouldn't have given up one carrier!

Click to expand...

Actually, the Victorious operated in the Pacific for a time in mid 1943. She was sent to support USS Saratoga. I forget the exact details of the operation, but it lasted for a couple of months. Between May and June?

Oh R Leonard, where are you?

Nice pic NAVAIR.

I know the pics suck, but it was the best I could do. The folks at Chino couldn't control the early morning haze.

I will check my old photo albums to see if there are better ones that I can scan for you.

I was saying that I wouldn't have given up a single carrier, NS. And yes, RL, needs to be here to sort all of this out.

okay . . .

HMS Victorious operations in the Solomons, 1943: After refitting at Norfolk Navy Yard (Portsmouth, VA) in the winter 1942-43, HMS Victorious (Capt. L.D. MacIntosh, RN) arrived at Pearl Harbor on 4 March 1943 in response to a December 1942 USN request for the loan of a carrier until the Essex class carriers started to be ready for combat duty. After re-equipping with US airplanes and a work-up period in Hawaiian waters, Victorious operated with USS Saratoga in the Solomons area from 17 May through 31 July, 1943. These carriers operated as TF-36 under RAdm DeWitt Ramsey, USN. There were no major sea engagements during this period. Most of the action was in the central Solomons with USN and USMC aircraft operating out of Cactus and Knucklehead. Saratoga and Victorious primarily served as a backstop against any possible sortie by Japanese carrier forces, though they did provide cover for the invasion of Munda. Many sources, books, and especially the internet, will throw out that Victorious was re-named USS Robin as a security precaution. My source, who was flying fighters in the vicinity in the same period reported that "Robin" was the radio call sign for Victorious. This later became a joke as the ship was referred to as USS Robin, but there was never anything official. (Which makes a little more sense, I can't see the RN going along with re-naming one of their RN commanded and manned ships as USS anything) Others will report that this joint operation goes unmentioned in US histories, however, I'd point out that it is covered in the more thorough naval histories of the period. A quick random survey in my library of US type histories, grabbing just four off the shelf, the info appears in all four. Descriptions of the operations shows up as early as 1946 in volume 2 of Capt. Walter Karig's five volume "Battle Report' series, "Pacific War- Middle Phase". Also shows up in the German source, Rohwer Hummelchen's "Chronik des Seekriegs 1939-45" (Chronology of the War at Sea 1939-1945).

and

OOB TF-37 during operations off the coast of Japan, July-August 1945 (all named are RN unless otherwise noted)

Commander Carrier Task Force 37 - VAdm Sir Bernard Rawlings, KCB, KBE

Implacable - Capt CC Hughes-Hallett, CBE
-38th Naval Fighter Wing - Lt Cdr RM Crosley, DSC (w/Bar)
--880 Squadron (Seafire) - Lt Cdr Crosley
--801 Squadron (Seafire) - Lt Cdr S Jewers, RNVR
--828 Squadron (TBM) - Lt Cdr FA Swanton, DSC
--1771 Squadron (Firefly) - Lt Cdr WRJ MacWhirter, DSC

Indefatigable Capt QD Graham, CBE, DSO
-24th Naval Fighter Wing - Lt Cdr NG Hallett, DSC (w/Bar)
--887 Squadron (Seafire) - Lt Cdr AJ Thomson, DSC, RNVR
--894 Squadron (Seafire) - Lt Cdr J Crossman, DSO, RNVR
--820 Squadron (TBM) - Lt FL Jones, DSC (w/Bar), RNVR
--1770 Squadron (Firefly) - Maj VBG Chessman, DSO, MBE, DSC, RM

Victorious Capt MM Denny, CB, CBE
-47th Naval Fighter Wing - Lt Col RC Hay, DSO (w/Bar), DSC, RM
--1834 Squadron (F4U) - Lt Cdr PN Charlton, DFC
--1836 Squadron (F4U) - Lt Cdr JB Edmundson, DSC
--849 Squadron (TBM) - Lt Cdr AJ Griffiths, RN

Formidable Capt P Ruck-Keene
-6th Naval Fighter Wing - Lt Cdr RL Bigg-Wither, DSC (w/Bar), RNVR
--1841 Squadron (F4U) - Lt Cdr Bigg-Wither
--1842 Squadron (F4U) - Lt Cdr DG Parker, DSC, RNVR
--848 Squadron (TBM) - Lt Cdr TGV Percy

King George V (FltFlg) Capt BB Schofield, CBE
ComCruSquad4 - RAdm EJP Brind, CB CBE
Newfoundland (FlgCruSqd4) Capt RW Ravenhill, CBE, DSC
-Black Prince Capt GV Gladstone
-Euryalas Capt RS Warne, CBE
-Achilles (RNZN) Capt FJ Butler, MBE
-Uganda (RCN) Capt ER Mainguy, RCN
-Gambia (RNZN) Capt RAB Edwards, CBE
Grenville (4thDesFlot) Capt RG Onslow, DSO
-Udine Cdr TC Robinson, DSC
-Urania Lt Cdr DHP Gardiner, DSC
-Urchin Lt Cdr AF Harkness, OBE, DSC, RD, RNVR
-Ulysses Lt Cdr BGB Bordes, DSC
-Undaunted Lt Cdr CER Sharp
-Quiberon (RAN) Cdr GS Stuart, RAN
-Quickwatch (RAN) Lt Cdr OH Becher, DSC, RAN
-Quality Cdr Viscount Jocelyn
-Quadrant Lt Cdr PC Hopkins
Troubridge (2DesFlot) Capt GF Burghard
-Tenacious Lt Cdr GC Crowley, DSC
-Termagent Lt Cdr DC Beatty, DSC
-Terpsichore Cdr RT White, DSC
-Teazer Lt Cdr TF Taylor, DSC

I could probably conjure up an OOB for TF-57 during the Okinawa campaign, but I don't have one handy. It would be similar to the above.

Rich

And also found

TF-37 Activity July and August 1945

Format is Date -- Strike Sorties -- CAP Sorties -- Tons of Bombs Delivered

18 Jul -- 51 -- 40 -- 10
24 Jul -- 284 -- 131 -- 93
25 Jul -- 175 -- 138 -- 46
28 Jul -- 237 -- 132 -- 85
30 Jul -- 192 -- 130 -- 66
9 Aug. -- 258 -- 137 -- 105
10 Aug. -- 227 -- 132 -- 90
13 Aug. -- 21 -- 42 -- 8
15 Aug. -- 17 -- 47 -- 1
TOTAL -- 1462 -- 929 -- 504

Rich

Oh, he works miracles. Excellent, Rich. B-E-A-utiful.

Once again, Rich, great info. Thanks

He's a fountain on this stuff. Excellent.

We could make another thread...."American carriers vs RN carriers, who was better"

That would bring out some opinions, heheheheheh

That was discussed here not so long ago. Now that we have a lot of fresh faces around here, it might be interesting to see some more opinions.

Well I just re-read War in a Stringbag by commander Charlie Lamb
and he said the Eagles flight deck was so thin that if you jumped up and down it set off a sympathetic vibration on the other hand the Illustrious had three inches of amoured flight deck but when the Stukas reaked revenge for Taranto using amour peircing bombs it contained the fires and made them a real arsehole to tackle. but against convetional bombs and Kamikazi the amoured flight decks where very usefull in damage limitation.

Didnt the USN think the unarmoured flight decks had one advantage in that they could be repaired very quickly?

Question for you..... Did that 3" armoured flightdeck affect its sea handling in rough sea's? All that weight so high above the water, must have given the ship a high center of gravity.

I don't know why the USA went fo the wooden deck and it may well have made it easier to repair in dock where you have the cranes and equipment to handle the timber. Unfortunately it didn't do anything to cntain the damage when the ship was hit. Hence they were able to take such damage.
The weight of the deck and the armoured sides to hanger (up to 4 inches) did have an effect and this was countered by only having one hanger deck not two as in other Fleet carriers which is why the nominal no of aircraft carried by the RN carriers was so much less than the USN carriers.
Our later carriers had a better balance retaining the Armoured deck but reducing the armour on the sides of the hanger to 1.5 inches which enabled us to go back to two hanger decks, helping to redress the balance to some degree.

The Colossus class light carriers were essentially slightly smaller Illustrious class fleet carriers minus the added armour.