GregP
Major
My real girlfiend is NOTHING like my sim girlfried ... and that's all I can safely say.
Schweiks Sim vs. Real Flying Debate Thread
- Thread starter Schweik
- Start date
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Oh...I can't wait for Biff's observations on that last comment.Biff would know more about that than I...
Blackhawks had no radar or anything of that sort. They were flown by real pilots...
I'm getting out the popcorn as we speak!
In my experience it all depends atmospherics, or how far and or distinct the horizon is. Close and distinct you are looking down more even though you think you are looking level. Far and distinct you are looking more levelish and in my opine get better hacks on an aircrafts altitude relative to yours. Indistinct makes it tougher period.
As far as gizmos on fighters, yes an air intercept (AI) equipped fighter can get your altitude to the hundreds, heading with in ten degrees, speed with in ten knots, aspect angle, IFF, velocity of closure or V sub C, and share most of that with anyone on the datalink with you. They also slew weapons, put info into the HUD and or the Helmet Mounted Sight (HMS). From what I've heard some of the games are pretty accurate.
And to answer DerAdler I've heard that helo flying is some of the last great seat of the pants fun to be had!
Cheers,
Biff
Oh...I can't wait for Biff's observations on that last comment.
I'm getting out the popcorn as we speak!
Biff knows I am only joking with him. Being that he is prior service, I am sure he has a thick skin, and will just give it right back.
It is fun. 50 feet over the ground, 140 knots, trees to the left and right of you, going up and over hill tops. NOE flying is a lot of fun, feeling the pit of your stomach in your throat, and being pushed into the back of your seat and crunched to the floor. Yeah it is. Like I said, I was only a Crew Chief, so I too was only along for the ride.
I doubt it compares though to anything like a fighter in a dogfight, or just doing combat maneuvers in a high speed F-15 though...
MrMojok
Airman
One other thing. Military fighter experience is totally different I am sure, and I am not talking about that here.
But in terms of the physical reality... spending money and time puttering around in a Cessna doesn't give anyone any more credibility to make authoritative statements about WWII aerial combat than being a 15-year IL-2 veteran does. I know the pilot who does this is actually flying, unlike the IL-2 player, but he isn't flying like he's in a dogfight in WWII.
Not even close. Nobody flies a Piper or similar plane the way people flew Spits in WWII. They are underpowered, they aren't built to perform like that, and they won't take the strain of some of those maneuvers. If I tried to fly like that in such a plane, I would probably die, and deservedly so. No such recreational pilot has has ever bounced anyone out of the sun, or been bounced out of the sun, or ever will be.
Getting a license and flying planes like that is fun and cool and good but it has nothing at all to do with WWII aerial combat. I don't care how many hours someone racks up. In my opinion anyone who thinks it does is delusional.
It is like a dude saying that because he drives his Honda Civic to work every day, and is a good driver, he has great insight into what it's like to drive an F1 car at Spa-Francorchamps. That statement is no more ridiculous than the idea that a few hundred hours in a Cherokee gives one unique insight into WWII air combat maneuvering.
But in terms of the physical reality... spending money and time puttering around in a Cessna doesn't give anyone any more credibility to make authoritative statements about WWII aerial combat than being a 15-year IL-2 veteran does. I know the pilot who does this is actually flying, unlike the IL-2 player, but he isn't flying like he's in a dogfight in WWII.
Not even close. Nobody flies a Piper or similar plane the way people flew Spits in WWII. They are underpowered, they aren't built to perform like that, and they won't take the strain of some of those maneuvers. If I tried to fly like that in such a plane, I would probably die, and deservedly so. No such recreational pilot has has ever bounced anyone out of the sun, or been bounced out of the sun, or ever will be.
Getting a license and flying planes like that is fun and cool and good but it has nothing at all to do with WWII aerial combat. I don't care how many hours someone racks up. In my opinion anyone who thinks it does is delusional.
It is like a dude saying that because he drives his Honda Civic to work every day, and is a good driver, he has great insight into what it's like to drive an F1 car at Spa-Francorchamps. That statement is no more ridiculous than the idea that a few hundred hours in a Cherokee gives one unique insight into WWII air combat maneuvering.
The thing is though, that I don't think you will see any of us Cessna drivers out there talking as if we know about combat flying. All we are saying is that sim gaming is not like the real thing. I think the only ones here making quantitive facts about combat flying are those that have experience in it...
MrMojok
Airman
You're right, I don't see anyone in this thread saying it. I am not very familiar with this community to be sure, but there are three types of people who tend to be common in WWII aviation sites/threads since the beginning of the internet.
1) the one who is the terror of the online IL-2 servers or ace combat or whatever game, and thinks this gives him license to talk about what WWII fighters can and cannot do (and I am not directing this at you, Schweik. This isn't what you were saying)
2) the one who has a few hundred hours flying Cessnas, so shut up, book-reading, model building nerds
3) the one who believes the Luftwaffe and their aircraft were the finest pilots and fighting machines in the history of air combat (usually thinks the same about U-boats and panzers and tigers) but has no other agenda, nosiree
You guys obviously have a lot of experience here with guy #1. I'd be shocked if there weren't some guy #2s and 3s here also.
To clarify, what brought this on was the suggestion that Schweik bust out the wallet and get seat time to learn what it's like. It won't help, for the purposes of the WWII realism discussion. I don't think anything really could short of becoming a fighter pilot. But that's just my $0.02
1) the one who is the terror of the online IL-2 servers or ace combat or whatever game, and thinks this gives him license to talk about what WWII fighters can and cannot do (and I am not directing this at you, Schweik. This isn't what you were saying)
2) the one who has a few hundred hours flying Cessnas, so shut up, book-reading, model building nerds
3) the one who believes the Luftwaffe and their aircraft were the finest pilots and fighting machines in the history of air combat (usually thinks the same about U-boats and panzers and tigers) but has no other agenda, nosiree
You guys obviously have a lot of experience here with guy #1. I'd be shocked if there weren't some guy #2s and 3s here also.
To clarify, what brought this on was the suggestion that Schweik bust out the wallet and get seat time to learn what it's like. It won't help, for the purposes of the WWII realism discussion. I don't think anything really could short of becoming a fighter pilot. But that's just my $0.02
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I was counting on it.
I'm sure you may recall in the past, me saying that I grew up in a household full of career top-kicks from all services.
Want to hear things get "colorful"? Get 'em all in a living room with a few beers - it doesn't take long...
Well the guy who made the comment does have some time in fighter aircraft, and is much more than a 200 hour guy in a Cessna.
I would not lump him in the catagory of #2...
I was counting on it.
I'm sure you may recall in the past, me saying that I grew up in a household full of career top-kicks from all services.
Want to hear things get "colorful"? Get 'em all in a living room with a few beers - it doesn't take long...
Absolutely. Some of the best to share a beer with. Very fun times.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
We have members in the forum who are actual fighter pilots (of various branches), but while an F-15 or other modern ship is amazing, it's nothing like an A6M, P-38, Hurricane or any other fighter of WWII.
That's like comparing a 1938 Auburn speedster to a 2016 Cadillac CTS - they both function the same in principle but are world apart in operation.
MrMojok
Airman
I know he does, I knew that when I first joined here last year or whenever it was. What I'm saying is, it is my belief that only people like him can have any idea of what it's like. No amount of money spent on a private pilot's license, no matter what you are flying, is going to help you understand like fighter pilots do.
MrMojok
Airman
MrMojok
Airman
Anyway since this whole situation is my fault for bumping that ancient thread, I'll shut up for another year now.
Nothing was your fault.
No need to run off. Spirited debates happen all the time. They usually buff out...
- Thread starter
- #57
Nothing is the same as flying combat in WW2 except flying combat in WW2 - that said, I think a modern fighter pilot can give us tons of insight, a Cessna pilot with 200+ hours can give us plenty of insight too (and if I had the time and the $$$ I would definitely get my pilots license and get all the time in I could. And buy a float plane. But sadly none of that is likely). It's true a Cessna isn't a Spitfire (and neither is an F-15) but there is a lot to flying, even if you aren't pulling 6 G's. And I'm eager to learn anything I can about it, I find it all fascinating.
And reading books, and listening to interviews with Aces, and yeah even making models (a tiny bit) and playing Sim games. I'm under no illusions Il2 is anything other than a game. But it can help you understand what you learn from the other sources a bit.
Personally I'll take anything I get because I love WW2 planes and fighters, and really just about any kind of plane from any era, military or otherwise, and I really enjoy talking to pilots, and even to grumpy old forum regulars who snap at me some times. I got the bug when i was real little and had the luck to get buzzed by a Bearcat on a desolate, hot and dusty airfield in a very remote part of Texas by a guy who wanted to play a prank on a Life Magazine reporter when I was six years old.
I have a feeling, whatever else we don't have in common, most of us in here have the same bug.
S
And reading books, and listening to interviews with Aces, and yeah even making models (a tiny bit) and playing Sim games. I'm under no illusions Il2 is anything other than a game. But it can help you understand what you learn from the other sources a bit.
Personally I'll take anything I get because I love WW2 planes and fighters, and really just about any kind of plane from any era, military or otherwise, and I really enjoy talking to pilots, and even to grumpy old forum regulars who snap at me some times. I got the bug when i was real little and had the luck to get buzzed by a Bearcat on a desolate, hot and dusty airfield in a very remote part of Texas by a guy who wanted to play a prank on a Life Magazine reporter when I was six years old.
I have a feeling, whatever else we don't have in common, most of us in here have the same bug.
S
I resemble (and resent) that remark! Except the few hundred hours is really thirteen thousand hours, and in a much wider variety than just Cessnas. Includes several acro types and a few backseat "observer" rides in F-4s and A-4s engaged in Air Combat Maneuvering training. In the F-4 I operated the radar and functioned as an amateur RIO. You can't get much closer to "real" combat without live weapons. Forty+ years later, I guess it's okay to talk about it, but we had a T-34 and a Cessna Acrobat in the Flying Club and there was considerable illicit Air Combat Maneuvering conducted with these planes. (The days of young and foolish!) The heavier, more powerful, higher energy T-34 vs the slower, tighter turning, more agile Acrobat, was a decent analog for F-4 vs A-4. Vertical fight vs turning fight. Scissors and yoyo vs bank and yank. The better smoother pilot can "win" in either aircraft as long as he or she uses the advantages of their plane more adeptly than the opponent.
Now this isn't real combat, but it gives insights a PC flight sim would be hard put to match.
Cheers,
Wes
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...but very difficult when seated in an armchair in front of a computer screen to simulate an unpressurized cockpit at 30k' with gas in the intestines that expands as the atmospheric pressure decreases...
I raced motorcycles at all major UK circuits and have run a sim for motorcycle racing...…..nothing like the same, the sport is all about the feel under power and braking which just isn't there on a PC, strangely I didn't get tired on the PC while 7 laps of Donnington was hard work for a very fit 22 yr old.
