Scoped K98k and Mosin Nagant at the range

Discussion in 'WW2 General' started by Soren, Jun 12, 2008.

  1. Soren

    Soren Banned

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  2. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    Nice videos, It would be interesting to watch also the same shooter with a head sized target, and I say "head" because I remeber a lot of wild stories about super accuracy of ww2 snipers.
     
  3. marconi

    marconi Member

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    Video says yards, not metres.
     
  4. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Only really the German sharpshooters were capable of extremely accurate long range fire, fielding far better scopes and far more accurate projectiles. On top of that Germany was one of the few countries to have actual sniping schools and a dedicated sniper arm. The basic training program of the Scharfschütze is still used today by the German, US, British Canadian sniper arm.

    The German Scharfschütze had available to him a an extremely accurate rifle and the most accurate efficient projectile out there, the 12.8 g (198 gr) FMJ-BT Schwere SpitzGeschoss, which featuring a ballistic coefficient (BC) of .584, was a good deal more efficient than both the military .308 cal M118 match .308win Sierra MatchKing projectiles, both of which have BCs ranging from .490 - .515.

    According to veteran German ScharfSchützen headshots could easily be made out to 600m without fail, and the chest was easily hit at 800m without fail, while a standing man was vulnerable even at 1200m if the German sniper knew what he was doing. (And this is with a 6x scope, 8x scopes were available as-well)

    Zielacht (8X) scope by Zeiss
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    8X scope by Dialytan
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  5. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    Yea, the "heavy pointed bullet" was accurate, but not particulary high velocity, that is why I have my doubts about the shot at distances of more than 400 meters.
     
  6. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    760 m/s is plenty fast Charles, and the effective range of the German round is a good deal longer than that of any Allied round (Watch tables below). The US marine sniper's std. sniping round is the 172gr M118 FMJ-BT (BC: .494) which has a MV of 730 m/s and is fired very accurately out to 900m. The 7.92mm 12.8 g sS projectile can be fired accurately at even longer ranges.

    For excellent long range accuracy you need a heavy, stable and very low drag projectile (Streamlined), muzzle velocity is of less importance.

    A WW2 German sniper was easily capable of taking down a standing man at 800+ m meters with one shot, and like the veterans specialists say chest hits were achieved out to beyond 800m without fail for experienced snipers. German snipers used to pick off Allied soldiers all the way out to 1,200m, just to show the Allies that they couldn't even feel safe at that range. However it was recommended not to shoot until the target was within atmost 800m, as target ID was then possible.

    [​IMG]


    G7 = Drag function for FMJ-BT projectiles
    G1 = Drag function for most projectiles incl. FMJ spitzers.

    7.92mm 12.8 g (198 gr) sS Geschoss (FMJ-BT), BC = .584, MV = 760 m/s:
    Max range
    [​IMG]
    Ballistics / Trajectory
    [​IMG]

    7.62mm 9.7 g (150 gr) M2 Ball (FMJ Spitzer), BC = .420, MV = 853 m/s:
    Max range
    [​IMG]
    Ballistics / Trajectory
    [​IMG]
     
  7. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    Interesting Tables, according to this the 8mm bullet is still supersonic after 2 kilometers...:shock:

    Is data of modern ammo ? or is also the same for ww2 SS?
     
  8. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
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    Note that in the videos the 98k had a modern high power scope (likely 10x or greater). The Mosin Nagant had an original or remanufactured WWII PU scope that I want to recall is 4x or 6x. Big difference. And the shooting showed it. Also, looked like the 98k had either a rough chamber or an improperly sized cartridge, as the extraction was REAL difficult.
     
  9. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Matt,

    The K98k is built to very tight tolerances, and therefore it IS hard to operate, cycling the bolt smoothly requires a LOT of practice as it only does so when pressure is applied at the right places at the right time. This is also one of the reasons the Germans experienced some minor problems with the rifle in the cold russian winter, the tight tolerances of the weapon causing jams. However some other lubricants were issued which lessened the problem.

    Now the thing about the scopes is not really of any importance at 640y Matt, the guy can ping that target every time with a K31 with iron sights, he's a crack shot. Remember the scope just magnifies the target it doesn't improve your aim if your eye sight is good. That guy most likely has eagle eyes.

    I have a 12x scope on one of my rifles, but I prefer 6 to 8x magnification at long distances, the vibrations being less apparent.
     
  10. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    I believe the Mosin scope was a 3,5x and the ones used in K-98 didnt exceed the 6 x.:rolleyes:
     
  11. pbfoot

    pbfoot Active Member

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    I note you stated the Germans were the best snipers and the doctrine was was integrated by Canada US and UK just curious do you know what course Francis Pegahmagabow was on :rolleyes:
     
  12. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    It is data for surplus WW2 military ammunition.

    Sellier Bellot manufacture a similar but slightly lighter FMJ-BT projectile for the 8x57 JS Mauser, a 12.7 g (196 gr) FMJ-BT which features a BC of .557. The 12.7 g FMJ-BT round by S&S has a MV of 790 m/s, so it is great for trying to duplicate the performance of the German sS round.

    Mitchell's Mausers makes a genuine 12.8 g (198gr) FMJ-BT round though, which should be perfect for duplicating the sS round's performance.
     
  13. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    What's your point pbfoot ?? There are Finnish sniper with more kills than that, and they didn't just have to pick off guys sticking their heads out of trenches, PLUS they did it with IRON SIGHTS.

    And next time leave the rollingeyes at home.
     
  14. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    During WW2 ?

    The Russians had 6x scopes as-well, German manufactured. The Soviets bought a lot of scopes from the Germans before the break out of the war.
     
  15. pbfoot

    pbfoot Active Member

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    I'm aware about the Finnish sniper I was just curious how some guy from Germany was going to teach a trapper how to shoot seems to me he should be teaching the German dude
     
  16. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    pbfoot,

    Being the best is not about how many kills you've achieved as that depends entirely on opportunity and situation.

    Germany was pretty much the only country in after WW1 to establish sniper schools, developing most of the techniques used today. The Allies failed to do this.

    However the best snipers are have always usually been hunters, as they're experienced in stalking getting close to their prey, an essential quality needed by the sniper. This is one of the reasons Francis did so well, besides his targets being sitting ducks.

    If you want a good sniper, get the hunters, that's what Britain, Finland, Germany, America Russia did.
     
  17. machine shop tom

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    I have owned a M91 Mosin Nagant (Remington manufacture) and presently own a K98, slightly sporterized. I'd like to pick up a surplus MN and compare the 2 at the range someday.

    tom
     
  18. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the info on ammo subject.

    Roger that, but I think the big majority of soviet snipers used the 3,5 x Pu.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. machine shop tom

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    The Mosin Nagant was very popular with the North Vietnamese during the Viet Nam war. It was very effective and was a weapon to be feared at ranges up to 500 yds., according to Douglas Mark de Haas, former instructor at the Marine scout-sniper school in Vietnam, circa 1967 or so.

    tom
     
  20. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    True, however a lot were equipped with German scopes, here's an example with a ZF42:
     

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