Should The Allies Have Bypassed Italy?

stug3 said:

I dont think there were nearly as many units equipped with Spitfires and P-38s as there were P-40s. P-40 units learned what to do what not to do when taking on various enemy types.

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One of the things they learned to do was stay low and let somebody else fight at higher altitudes.

stug3 said:

I disagree

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The Most important jobs for a fighter unit were to stop enemy recon planes and enemy bombers from executing their own TAS missions. Next was making sure friendly bomber units could complete their missions as much as possible. It doesn't do much for the war effort if twin engine bombers that can carry 1000-3000lb bomb loads are sitting on air fields while "fighters" are attacking the enemy with 250-500lb bomb loads. If you have enough fighters to stop a fair percentage of the enemy missions AND escort your own tactical bombers to keep the enemy form shooting down too many of them THEN the fighters can play TAS or CAS to their hearts content.

stug3 said:

Its a well documented fact that P-40 units were quite capable of successfully defending themselves or attacking enemy formations. Experience taught them what they could and could not get away with when taking on different enemy types just as it did in the PTO CBI with F4Fs, etc.

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I think you are missing the point here. P-40s were capable of "defending themselves" but only by dropping the bombs (just like any other fighter bomber) which means the CAS strike is defeated until the P-40s (or another squadron/group) can rearm and try the mission again. having a better performing fighter fly as "top cover" means the enemy does not get to bounce from above or has to tangle with the top cover first and the TAS planes may get to actually bomb the target that day.

you may want to try seeing which enemy formations the P-40s attacked. Bombers and transports or Bf 109s at altitude? Flying at low level and letting the enemy fly above you doesn't usually work real well. It gives the initiative to the enemy. You cannot attack him, ( by the time you climb he is gone if he wants to be) but he can decide to attack you ( has the advantage of diving down) or not if it looks the the numbers are wrong or there is another disadvantage. Letting the enemy pick and choose the fights is a sure way to have a less then favorable kill to loss ratio. The P-40 could not force the fight as well as the Spitfire and P-38. Doesn't mean it didn't do good work or couldn't defend itself but defending itself is not defending bombers or intercepting enemy missions.

stug3 said:

I disagree, I think the P-40 was the most numerous (and therefore dominant) type being utilized by the Allies in the MTO by 1943.

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I dot think that is correct actually

Mediterranean Air Command (MAC) (part I)
September 3, 1943
Northwest African Air Force (NAAF)
Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF)
No. 205 Group RAF
No. 231 Wing RAF
No. 37 Squadron (20 Wellingtons X)
No. 70 Squadron (20 Wellingtons III/X)
No. 236 Wing RAF
No. 40 Squadron (20 Wellingtons III/X)
No. 104 Squadron (20 Wellingtons III/X)
No. 330 Wing RAF
No. 142 Squadron (20 Wellingtons III/X)
No. 150 Squadron (20 Wellingtons III/X)
No. 331 Wing RAF
No. 420 Squadron RCAF (20 Wellingtons X)
No. 424 Squadron RCAF (20 Wellingtons X)
No. 425 Squadron RCAF (20 Wellingtons X)
5th Heavy Bombardment Wing (USAAF)
97th Heavy Bombardment Group
340th Bombardment Squadron (12 B-17 Fortresses)
341st Bombardment Squadron (12 B-17 Fortresses)
342nd Bombardment Squadron (12 B-17 Fortresses)
414th Bombardment Squadron (12 B-17 Fortresses)
301st Heavy Bombardment Group
32nd Bombardment Squadron (12 B-17 Fortresses)
352nd Bombardment Squadron (12 B-17 Fortresses)
353rd Bombardment Squadron (12 B-17 Fortresses)
419th Bombardment Squadron (12 B-17 Fortresses)
90th Heavy Bombardment Group
346th Bombardment Squadron (12 B-17 Fortresses)
347th Bombardment Squadron (12 B-17 Fortresses)
348th Bombardment Squadron (12 B-17 Fortresses)
416th Bombardment Squadron (12 B-17 Fortresses)
2nd Heavy Bombardment Group
20th Bombardment Squadron (12 B-17 Fortresses)
49th Bombardment Squadron (12 B-17 Fortresses)
96th Bombardment Squadron (12 B-17 Fortresses)
429th Bombardment Squadron (12 B-17 Fortresses)
47th Medium Bombardment Wing (USAAF)
310th Medium Bombardment Group
379th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-25 Mitchells)
380th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-25 Mitchells)
381st Bombardment Squadron (13 B-25 Mitchells)
428th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-25 Mitchells)
321st Medium Bombardment Group
445th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-25 Mitchells)
446th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-25 Mitchells)
447th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-25 Mitchells)
448th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-25 Mitchells)
82nd Fighter Group
95th Fighter Squadron (25 P-38 Lightnings)
96th Fighter Squadron (25 P-38 Lightnings)
97th Fighter Squadron (25 P-38 Lightnings)
42nd Medium Bombardment Wing (USAAF)
17th Medium Bombardment Group
34th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-26 Marauders)
37th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-26 Marauders)
95th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-26 Marauders)
432nd Bombardment Squadron (13 B-26 Marauders)
319th Medium Bombardment Group
437th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-26 Marauders)
438th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-26 Marauders)
439th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-26 Marauders)
440th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-26 Marauders)
320th Medium Bombardment Group
441st Bombardment Squadron (13 B-26 Marauders)
442nd Bombardment Squadron (13 B-26 Marauders)
443rd Bombardment Squadron (13 B-26 Marauders)
444th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-26 Marauders)
1st Fighter Group
27th Fighter Squadron (25 P-38 Lightnings)
71st Fighter Squadron (25 P-38 Lightnings)
94th Fighter Squadron (25 P-38 Lightnings)
14th Fighter Group
37th Fighter Squadron (25 P-38 Lightnings)
48th Fighter Squadron (25 P-38 Lightnings)
49th Fighter Squadron (25 P-38 Lightnings)
325th Fighter Group
317th Fighter Squadron (25 P-38 Lightnings)
318th Fighter Squadron (25 P-38 Lightnings)
319th Fighter Squadron (25 P-38 Lightnings)
Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF)
Northwest African Tactical Bomber Force (NATBF)
8e Groupement
I/11 Squadron FFAF (15 LeO 5)
II/23 Squadron FFAF (15 LeO 5)
I/25 Squadron FFAF (15 LeO 5)
No. 3 Wing SAAF
No. 12 Squadron SAAF (24 Bostons)
No. 24 Squadron SAAF (24 Bostons)
No. 21 Squadron SAAF (24 Baltimores)
No. 232 Wing RAF
No. 55 Squadron RAF (24 Baltimores)
No. 223 Squadron RAF (24 Baltimores)
No. 326 Wing RAF
No. 18 Squadron RAF (16 Bostons)
No. 114 Squadron RAF (16 Bostons)
47th Light Bombardment Group USAAF
84th Bombardment Squadron (13 A-20 Havocs)
85th Bombardment Squadron (13 A-20 Havocs)
86th Bombardment Squadron (13 A-20 Havocs)
97th Bombardment Squadron (13 A-20 Havocs)
12th Medium Bombardment Group USAAF
81st Bombardment Squadron (13 B-25 Mitchells)
82nd Bombardment Squadron (13 B-25 Mitchells)
83rd Bombardment Squadron (13 B-25 Mitchells)
434th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-25 Mitchells)
340th Medium Bombardment Group USAAF
486th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-25 Mitchells)
487th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-25 Mitchells)
488th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-25 Mitchells)
489th Bombardment Squadron (13 B-25 Mitchells)
XII Air Support Command (USAAF)
27th Fighter-Bomber Group
522nd Fighter Squadron (13 A-36A Invaders)
523rd Fighter Squadron (13 A-36A Invaders)
524th Fighter Squadron (13 A-36A Invaders)
31st Fighter Group
307th Fighter Squadron (25 Spitfires V/IX)
308th Fighter Squadron (25 Spitfires V/IX)
309th Fighter Squadron (25 Spitfires V/IX)
33rd Fighter Group
58th Fighter Squadron (25 P-40 Warhawks)
59th Fighter Squadron (25 P-40 Warhawks)
60th Fighter Squadron (25 P-40 Warhawks)
99th Fighter Squadron (25 P-40 Warhawks) det.
111th Tactical Recon. Squadron (18 P-51 Mustangs) det.
86th Fighter-Bomber Group
525th Fighter Squadron (25 A-36A Apaches/Invaders/Mustangs)
526th Fighter Squadron (25 A-36A Apaches/Invaders/Mustangs)
527th Fighter Squadron (25 A-36A Apaches/Invaders/Mustangs)
Desert Air Force
No. 60 Squadron SAAF (P-38 Lightnings/Mosquitos)
No. 241 Squadron RAF (16 Hurricanes/Spitfires)
No. 211 Group RAF
No. 7 Wing RAF
No. 2 Squadron SAAF (16 Spitfires VC/IX)
No. 4 Squadron SAAF (16 Spitfires VC/IX)
57th Fighter Group USAAF
64th Fighter Squadron (25 P-40F Warhawks)
65th Fighter Squadron (25 P-40F Warhawks)
66th Fighter Squadron (25 P-40F Warhawks)
79th Fighter Group USAAF
85th Fighter Squadron (25 P-40F Warhawks)
86th Fighter Squadron (25 P-40F Warhawks)
87th Fighter Squadron (25 P-40F Warhawks)
No. 239 Wing RAF
No. 1 Squadron SAAF (16 Spitfires V/VIII)
No. 92 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires)
No. 145 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VC/VIII)
No. 417 Squadron RCAF (16 Spitfires VIII)
No. 601 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VB/VIII)
No. 285 Wing RAF
No. 40 Squadron SAAF (16 Spitfires)
No. 225 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires)
No. 1437 Flight RAF (6 P-51 Mustangs)
No. 322 Wing RAF
No. 81 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VC/IX)
No. 152 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VC/IX)
No. 154 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VC/IX)
No. 242 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VC/IX)
No. 324 Wing RAF
No. 43 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VC/IX)
No. 72 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VC/IX)
No. 232 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VC/IX)
No. 111 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VB/C/IX)
No. 243 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VB/C/IX)
No. 600 Squadron RAF (16 Beaufighters)
Northwest African Coastal Air Force (NACAF)
No. 36 Squadron RAF (20 Wellingtons)
No. 500 Squadron RAF (16 Hudsons)
No. 624 Squadron RAF (14 Halifaxes, 2 Venturas)
73rd Squadron USN (12 PBY Catalinas)
92nd Squadron USN (12 PBY Catalinas)
81st Fighter Group USAAF
91st Fighter Squadron (25 P-39 Airacobras)
92nd Fighter Squadron (25 P-39 Airacobras)
93rd Fighter Squadron (25 P-39 Airacobras)
63rd Fighter Wing
350th Fighter Group USAAF
345th Fighter Squadron (25 P-39 Airacobras)
346th Fighter Squadron (25 P-39 Airacobras)
347th Fighter Squadron (25 P-39 Airacobras)
414th Nightfighter Squadron USAAF (12 Beaufighters VIF)
415th Nightfighter Squadron USAAF (12 Beaufighters VIF)
416th Nightfighter Squadron USAAF (12 Beaufighters VIF)
417th Nightfighter Squadron USAAF (12 Beaufighters VIF)
No. 153 Squadron RAF (12 Beaufighters VIF)
No. 242 Group RAF
No. 813 Squadron FAA (12 Swordfishes)
No. 323 Wing RAF
No. 32 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VC/IX)
No. 73 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VC)
No. 253 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VC)
No. 87 Squadron RAF (16 Hurricanes II/Spitfires IX)
No. 219 Squadron RAF (16 Beaufighters VIF)
No. 325 Wing RAF
No. 272 Squadron RAF (16 Beaufighters)
No. 603 Squadron RAF (16 Beaufighters)
No. 604 Squadron RAF (16 Hudsons)
No. 614 Squadron RAF (16 Blenheims)
No. 328 Wing RAF
No. 13 Squadron RAF (16 Blenheims V)
No. 14 Squadron RAF (16 B-26 Mauraders)
No. 39 Squadron RAF (16 Beaufighters IX)
No. 47 Squadron, RAF (16 Beaufighters IX)
No. 52 Squadron, RAF (16 Beaufighters VIF)
No. 255 Squadron, RAF (16 Wellingtons)
No. 458 Squadron, RAAF (16 Wellingtons)
No. 608 Squadron, RAF (16 Hudsons)

MAC (part II)

62nd Fighter Wing
52nd Fighter Group USAAF
2nd Fighter Squadron (25 Spitfires)
4th Fighter Squadron (25 Spitfires)
5th Fighter Squadron (25 Spitfires)
2688th Headquarters (Anti-Submarine Patrols) USAAF
1st Anti-Submarine Squadron (12 B-24 Liberators)
2nd Anti-Submarine Squadron (12 B-24 Liberators)
2689th Headquarters
41 Squadron FFAF (12 Walruses)
I/3 Squadron FFAF (20 Spitfires VC)
II/7 Squadron FFAF (20 Spitfires VC)
I/4 Squadron FFAF (25 P-39 Airacobras)
I/5 Squadron FFAF (25 P-39 Airacobras)
III/6 Squadron FFAF (25 P-39 Airacobras)
II/5 Squadron FFAF (25 P-40 Kittyhawks)
Northwest African Photographic Reconnaissance Wing (NAPRW)
682nd Squadron RAF (12 Spitfires VB)
II/33 Squadron FFAF (6 P-38 Lightnings F-5A)
3rd Photographic Reconnaissance Group (USAAF)
12th Reconnaissance Squadron
15th Reconnaissance Squadron
23rd Reconnaissance Squadron
(39 P-38 F-5A Lightnings and 4 B-17 Fortresses)
Northwest African Troop Carrier Command (NATCC)
5th Troop Carrier Wing USAAF
60th Troop Carrier Group
10th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
11th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
12th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
28th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
62nd Troop Carrier Group
4th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
7th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
8th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
51st Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
64th Troop Carrier Group
16th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
17th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
18th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
35th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
52nd Troop Carrier Wing
61st Troop Carrier Group USAAF
14th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
15th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
53rd Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
59th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
313th Troop Carrier Group USAAF
29th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
47th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
48th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
49th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
315th Troop Carrier Group (from US 8th Air force)
34th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
43rd Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
316th Troop Carrier Group USAAF
36th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
44th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
45th Troop Carrier Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
No. 38 Wing RAF
No. 296 Squadron RAF (26 Albermarles)
No. 651 Squadron RAF (12 Austers)
No. 654 Squadron RAF (12 Austers)
Air Observation Post
Malta Command
No. 23 Squadron RAF (16 Mosquitos)
No. 108 Squadron RAF (16 Beauforts)
No. 256 Squadron RAF (6 Mosquitos)
No. 815 Squadron FAA (9 Albacores)
No. 826 Squadron FAA (9 Albacores)
Malta Wing RAF
No. 126 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VC/IX)
No. 249 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VC/IX)
No. 1435 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VC/IX)
No. 185 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VC/IX)
No. 229 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VC/IX)
No. 248 Wing RAF
No. 69 Squadron (16 Baltimores)
No. 221 Squadron (20 Wellingtons)
Middle East Air Command
HQ RAF Middle East
No. 680 Squadron RAF (12 Spitfires)
No. 216 Group RAF
No. 173 Squadron RAF (33 C-60 Lodestars, Fairchilds, et al)
No. 216 Squadron RAF (16 C-47 Dakotas)
No. 267 Squadron RAF (16 C-47 Dakotas)
No. 249 Wing RAF
No. 28 Squadron SAAF (16 Dakotas, Ansons, Wellingtons)
No. 117 Squadron RAF (16 C-47 Dakotas)
No. 162 Squadron RAF (16 Wellingtons/Blenheims)
A.H.Q. Levant
No. 209 Group RAF
No. 127 Squadron RAF (16 Hurricanes/Spitfires)
No. 227 Squadron RAF 16 Beaufighters VIC)
No. 213 Group RAF
2259th Wing RAF (commanded by Air Defenses, Eastern Med.)
A.H.Q. East Africa
No. 877 Squadron FAA (12 Hurricanes II)
No. 246 Wing RAF
No. 209 Squadron RAF (6 PBY Catalinas I/IB/IIA)
No. 250 Squadron RAF (6 PBY Catalinas IB)
No. 262 Squadron RAF (6 PBY Catalinas IB)
No. 230 Squadron RAF (6 Sunderlands III)
No. 248 Wing RAF
No. 265 Squadron (6 PBY Catalinas IB)
A.H.Q. Iraq Persia
No. 215 Group RAF
Defense Force (Abadan)(6 Hurricanes IIA)
No. 208 Squadron RAF (16 Hurricanes)
No. 244 Squadron RAF (16 Blenheims)
No. 140 Squadron RAF (6 PBY Catalinas IB)
H.Q. British Forces Aden
No. 8 Squadron RAF (16 Blehneims)
No. 1 Flight RAF (6 PBY Catalinas I)
9th Air Force (USAAF)
37th Squadron (13 C-47 Skytrains)
98th Heavy Bombardment Group
343rd Bombardment Squadron (8 B-24 Liberators)
344th Bombardment Squadron (8 B-24 Liberators)
345th Bombardment Squadron (8 B-24 Liberators)
346th Bombardment Squadron (8 B-24 Liberators)
376th Heavy Bombardment Group (from NASAF September 13, 1943)
512th Bombardment Squadron (8 B-24 Liberators)
513th Bombardment Squadron (8 B-24 Liberators)
514th Bombardment Squadron (8 B-24 Liberators)
515th Bombardment Squadron (8 B-24 Liberators)
No. 240 Wing RAF
No. 178 Squadron, RAF (16 Halifaxes/B-24 Liberators)
No. 462 Squadron RAAF (16 Halifaxes)
Air Defenses, Eastern Mediterranean
No. 259 Wing RAF
No. 46 Squadron (Beauforts)
No. 208 Squadron (18 Hurricanes IIA/B)
No. 210 Group RAF
No. 3 Squadron SAAF (16 Hurricanes IIC)
No. 33 Squadron RAF (16 Hurricanes IIC)
No. 215 Squadron RAF (16 Hurricanes IIC)
No. 274 Squadron RAF (16 Hurricanes IIC)
No. 212 Group RAF
No. 7 Squadron SAAF (16 Spitfires VC)
No. 80 Squadron SAAF (16 Spitfires VC)
No. 41 Squadron SAAF (16 Hurricanes IIB)
No. 94 Squadron RAF (16 Hurricanes IIC)
No. 123 Squadron RAF (16 Hurricanes IIC)
No. 134 Squadron RAF (16 Hurricanes IIB)
No. 174 Squadron RAF (16 Hurricanes IIC)
No. 89 Squadron RAF (16 Beaufighters)
No. 108 Squadron RAF (Beaufighters)
No. 14 Squadron RAF (14 Halifaxes II)
No. 237 Rhodesian Squadron (18 Hurricanes IIC)
No. 219 Group RAF
No. 46 Squadron RAF (16 Beaufighters VIF)
No. 74 Squadron RAF (16 Spitfires VB/VC)
No. 238 Squadron RAF (16 Hurricanes IIC)
No. 335 Hellenic Squadron (16 Hurricanes IIB)
No. 336 Hellenic Squadron (16 Hurricanes IIC)
No. 451 Squadron RAAF (16 Hurricanes IIC)
No. 201 Group RAF
No. 13 Hellenic Squadron (16 Blenheims V)
No. 15 Squadron SAAF (24 Baltimores)
No. 454 Squadron SAAF (16 Baltimores)
No. 459 Squadron SAAF (16 Hudsons IIIA/V/VI)
No. 238 Wing RAF
No. 16 Squadron SAAF (24 Beauforts)
No. 245 Wing RAF
No. 1 G.R.U. (3 Wellingtons I/IC)
No. 247 Wing RAF
No. 38 Squadron RAF (20 Wellingtons)
No. 203 Squadron RAF (16 Baltimores)
No. 252 Squadron RAF (16 Beaufighters
Notes:
det. = detachment
FAA = Fleet Air Arm (Royal Navy)
FFAF = Free French Air Force
Hellenic refers to Greek Air Force
RAF = Royal Air Force
RAAF = Royal Australian Air Force
RCAF = Royal Canadian Air Force
Rhodesian refers to Rhodesian Air Force
SAAF = South African Air Force
USAAF = United States Army Air Force
G.R.U. = General Reconnaissance Unit
Extracted and edited from:
C.J.C. Molony, F.C. Flynn, H.L. Davies, and T.P. Gleave, The Mediterranean and
the Middle East, Vol. V, The Campaign in Sicily 1943 and the Campaign in Italy, 3rd
September 1943 to 31st March 1944, London: HMSO, 1973.

As can be sen from the preceding two posts, if the numbers are added up, the dominant type in the MAC, both quantitatively and qualitatively was the spitfire....hands down

parsifal said:

As can be sen from the preceding two posts, if the numbers are added up, the dominant type in the MAC, both quantitatively and qualitatively was the spitfire....hands down

Click to expand...

I think those lists would be in a constant state of flux due to attrition, unit substitutions, introduction of new types (for the Allies anyway), etc.

stug3 said:

I think those lists would be in a constant state of flux due to attrition, unit substitutions, introduction of new types (for the Allies anyway), etc.

Click to expand...

Agreed, but the numbers are as at 8 September 1943....the day before the invasion. Planning for "Avalanche"would have begun after "Husky"....July 1943, so there is a two month window whereby force structures might have changed. given that the Brit forces were more or less static by then, whilst the USAAC formations were the expanding ones, and that Kittyhawks were not increasing in number in the CW (the RAAF for example in 1943 was exchanging its Kittyhawks for Mustang IIIs) one might reasonably surmise there were a lesser number of Kittyhawks/P-40s and warhawks at the beginning of July than there were by early september. Perhaps not, but in any event the numbers are not going to change too dramatically

parsifal said:

"Concluding the Campaign in Southern Italy.

With the Salerno beachhead fully secure, the Fifth Army could begin to attack northwards. The Allies gathered their strength in anticipation of the attack toward Naples. From 9 September through 1 October, 190,000 troops, 30,000 vehicles, and 120,000 tons of supplies came ashore across the Salerno beach. The remainder of the British 7th Armoured Division, the U.S. 3d Infantry Division, and the last of General Ridgway's 82d Airborne Division disembarked along with the supplies which would facilitate the attack northward.

The 3rd Bat and 3rd Rangers landed by boat on September 3 along with elements 325th Glider Infantryand took Chiunzi Pass - and held it

".

Click to expand...

The historian didn't quite have the 82nd AB contribution in perspective or fact..

82nd Airborne Division During WW II - Campaigns - Italy

Parsifal - my beloved 504PIR/82nd Airborne Div 3rd Bat landed with elements of the 325th and 3rd Rangers - but 1st and 2nd Bat 504PIR dropped onto Salerno at night.. the did not come by 'cruise ship' accomodations.

From the history

"September 12th 1943 marked a turning point for the Allied forces. Savage fighting had erupted and raged all day. The dead and wounded began to pile up as the Allied front crumbled in places and units were cut off, overrun, and wiped out. By night fall the Germans had advanced to within 6 miles of the shore at all points.

By September 13th 1943, General Mark Clark's Fifth Army had held tenaciously to the Salerno beachhead for four days but needed immediate assistance otherwise they were in danger of being pushed backed into the sea. Realizing the precariousness of his situation General Clark sent a message to Major General Ridgway requesting a drop that night.

Immediately, a plan was conceived to drop the 504th PIR several miles from the embattled beachhead. Pathfinders would drop in first to mark the DZ by setting ablaze cans filled with sand and gasoline arranged in the shape of a "T".

Meanwhile, on standby at airfields in Sicily, the 1st and 2nd Battalions of the 504th were alerted, issued chutes, and loaded on aircraft without knowledge of their destination. Receiving their briefing aboard the plane, the men were told that the 5th Army beachhead was in danger and they were needed to jump in behind friendly lines. Flying in columns of battalions, they exited over the barrels of gasoline-soaked sand that formed the flaming "T" in the center of the drop zone. The regiment assembled quickly and moved to the sounds of cannon and small arms fire within the hour. The plan worked nearly flawlessly with the exception of one company that landed ten miles off target. By dawn, all the units of the 504th were firmly set in defensive positions. The next night the 505th PIR led by Colonel Gavin arrived in a similar manner.

The days that followed were, in the words of General Mark Clark, Commander of the 5th Army, "responsible for saving the Salerno beachhead." As the 504th (minus 3rd Battalion) took the high ground at Altavilla, the enemy counterattacked and the Commander of 6th Corps, General Dawley, suggested the unit withdraw. Epitomizing the determined spirit of the Regiment, Colonel Tucker vehemently replied, "Retreat, Hell! -- Send me my other battalion!" The 3rd Battalion then rejoined the 504th, the enemy was repulsed, and the Salerno beachhead was saved.

The operation secured the flanks of the 5th Army, allowing it to break out of the coastal plain and drive on to Naples. On 1 October 1943, the 504th became the first infantry unit to enter Naples, which it subsequently garrisoned. The operation was not only a success, but it also stands as one of history's greatest examples of the mobility of the airborne unit: within only eight hours of notification, the 504th developed and disseminated its tactical plan, prepared for combat, loaded aircraft and jumped onto its assigned drop zone to engage the enemy and turn the tide of battle."

The lads (2nd Bat) next assignment was to walk ashore and together with the 1st Special Service Force entrenched on the Mussolini Canal at Anzio. The rest of the 82nd went to England to regroup, re-equip and prepare for the Invasion drop - which 2nd Bat missed.

The first American infantry to land in force on the mainland in Europe ( Salerno) during WW2 was the T Patchers, the 36th Division, a Texas National Guard division. Go get em Texas!

for the USAAF Statistical digest airplanes on Hand in MTO
(end of august '43)
338 B-17, 115 B-24, 398 B-25, 270 B-26, 137 A-20, 362 P-38, 290 P-39, 625 P-40, 231 P-51, 43 Night Fighters, 188 Other Fighters, 51 F-45, 22 F-6, 30 Other Recces

Hi vincenzo

That list surely must be US types in the USAAC. otherwise there is not a single british a/c serving in the TO as at August 1943.

parsifal said:

Hi vincenzo

That list surely must be US types in the USAAC. otherwise there is not a single british a/c serving in the TO as at August 1943.

Click to expand...

i don't think so. Other Fightes i think are Spitfires, and is probable that in Night Fighters there were the Beaufighters...

Vincenzo said:

for the USAAF Statistical digest airplanes on Hand in MTO
(end of august '43)
338 B-17, 115 B-24, 398 B-25, 270 B-26, 137 A-20, 362 P-38, 290 P-39, 625 P-40, 231 P-51, 43 Night Fighters, 188 Other Fighters, 51 F-45, 22 F-6, 30 Other Recces

Click to expand...

Taking stock of just a few groups in the MTO. Both the 31st and 52nd FG flew Spits until May 1944 when they converted to Mustangs. They never flew P-40s

The 27th and 81st flew A-36s until Oct 43, then used P-40s as replacements until they converted to P-47s in Feb 1944...

The 1st, 14th and 82nd flew P-38s during entire war.

The 57th FG, 79th FG and 99th FS (part of 332nd later but flew with 324th at this time) flew P-40s, the 324th FG flew P-40's, the 325th flew P-40s and the 57th flew P-40s,

both 332 and 325 converted to 51s in April June 1944. The other P-40 groups converted to P-47's

By my count there were 7 groups flying P-38s (3) A-36's (2), and Spit IX's (2) to 4 Fg's flying P-40's.. still trying to remember which groups were flying P-39's after 1942 and can only come up with French and Commonwealth fighter units - yet Statistical Digest cites 290 P-39s??? or 231 P-51s ?? with only the 27th and 82nd flying them (A-36) ?

The number for P-51s (231) is close to all the operational USAAF P-51A count world wide in combat (MTO and CBI). If the 'other' count includes A-36 (not P-51, not F-6) plus Spitfires at only 188 then the P-40 count has to be World wide USAAF.

Said a different way - 290 P-39s and 625 P-40's in the USAAF - MTO is more fighters than all of the 9th and 12 AF combined in Aug 1943 (equal to 12 FG's) - which means the P-38's, A-36's Spitfires (of the 1, 14, 82, 27, 82, 52 and 31FG) may have been mistakenly assigned to the Desert AF and never flew for US.

PS I missed the 33rd and 81st - primarily because I forgot they went to CBI After Salerno - the 81st were flying P-38 but the 33rd was flying P-40.

Parsifal - your list had 325th fling P-38s but that is not factual. They started with P-40 and converted to P-47s starting in late August, 1943 - then briefly in P-47s starting Feb 1944, then Mustangs in May 1944.

Drgdong
i think that number for P-51 include also A-36, there is no A-36 seperate entry in the table.
I try to check FG in MTO (i hope i don't wrong some)
1st P-38
14th P-38
27th A-36
31st Spit
33rd P-40
52nd Spit
57th P-40
79th P-40
81st P-39
82nd P-38
86th A-36 (i'had writed P-40 but was a wrong entry as in the sum the A-36 FG are 2)
324th P-40
325th P-40
350th P-39

so 14 FG, 3 with 38, 2 with Spit, 2 with A-36, 2 with 39, 5 with 40

ever for the same time end august '43

I dont see how all this navel gazing and uesswork is more accurate than an extract from a published source that gives strenghts, type and availability for both the US and brit/CW nations on a squadron by squadron basis. The figures are already there...why are w re-inventing the wheel here.

drgondog said:

The historian didn't quite have the 82nd AB contribution in perspective or fact..

82nd Airborne Division During WW II - Campaigns - Italy

Parsifal - my beloved 504PIR/82nd Airborne Div 3rd Bat landed with elements of the 325th and 3rd Rangers - but 1st and 2nd Bat 504PIR dropped onto Salerno at night.. the did not come by 'cruise ship' accomodations.

From the history

"September 12th 1943 marked a turning point for the Allied forces. Savage fighting had erupted and raged all day. The dead and wounded began to pile up as the Allied front crumbled in places and units were cut off, overrun, and wiped out. By night fall the Germans had advanced to within 6 miles of the shore at all points.

By September 13th 1943, General Mark Clark's Fifth Army had held tenaciously to the Salerno beachhead for four days but needed immediate assistance otherwise they were in danger of being pushed backed into the sea. Realizing the precariousness of his situation General Clark sent a message to Major General Ridgway requesting a drop that night.

Immediately, a plan was conceived to drop the 504th PIR several miles from the embattled beachhead. Pathfinders would drop in first to mark the DZ by setting ablaze cans filled with sand and gasoline arranged in the shape of a "T".

Meanwhile, on standby at airfields in Sicily, the 1st and 2nd Battalions of the 504th were alerted, issued chutes, and loaded on aircraft without knowledge of their destination. Receiving their briefing aboard the plane, the men were told that the 5th Army beachhead was in danger and they were needed to jump in behind friendly lines. Flying in columns of battalions, they exited over the barrels of gasoline-soaked sand that formed the flaming "T" in the center of the drop zone. The regiment assembled quickly and moved to the sounds of cannon and small arms fire within the hour. The plan worked nearly flawlessly with the exception of one company that landed ten miles off target. By dawn, all the units of the 504th were firmly set in defensive positions. The next night the 505th PIR led by Colonel Gavin arrived in a similar manner.

The days that followed were, in the words of General Mark Clark, Commander of the 5th Army, "responsible for saving the Salerno beachhead." As the 504th (minus 3rd Battalion) took the high ground at Altavilla, the enemy counterattacked and the Commander of 6th Corps, General Dawley, suggested the unit withdraw. Epitomizing the determined spirit of the Regiment, Colonel Tucker vehemently replied, "Retreat, Hell! -- Send me my other battalion!" The 3rd Battalion then rejoined the 504th, the enemy was repulsed, and the Salerno beachhead was saved.

The operation secured the flanks of the 5th Army, allowing it to break out of the coastal plain and drive on to Naples. On 1 October 1943, the 504th became the first infantry unit to enter Naples, which it subsequently garrisoned. The operation was not only a success, but it also stands as one of history's greatest examples of the mobility of the airborne unit: within only eight hours of notification, the 504th developed and disseminated its tactical plan, prepared for combat, loaded aircraft and jumped onto its assigned drop zone to engage the enemy and turn the tide of battle."

The lads (2nd Bat) next assignment was to walk ashore and together with the 1st Special Service Force entrenched on the Mussolini Canal at Anzio. The rest of the 82nd went to England to regroup, re-equip and prepare for the Invasion drop - which 2nd Bat missed.

Click to expand...

Hi Dg

I accept that those elements stated as coming ashore across the beach in fact were airdropped...however your critique goes a lot further than that, and seems to claim that these several battalions of airborne troops were responsible for saving the entire beachhead. Just not the case, though ther4 is no denying that the arrival of the 82nd did a lot to help the American sector. The arrival of the British Commandoes had similar effects in the British sector.

However the arrival of these forces, whilst of imense help, were not the tipping points that saved the landings. No single event in the immediate history surrounding the Salerno landings can claim that. no single unit can claim that either...

Significant events that saved the allies, include, the intervention of the support forces, centred around HMS Warspite and Valiant, but also including direct gunfire suport by the Destroyers attached to providing direect oncall fire support to individual battalions. This sytem had been first used in Husky, and had been responsible for saving the Americans at Gela, once again it proved vital to the US forces at Salerno.

The eventual landing of artillery on the beaches


The concentrated efforts of the allied air forces that provided an unrelenting level of CAS to the beleagured ground forces.

The developing threat to the Germans position caused by the steadily advanacing elements of the 8th Army, coming up from Taranto mand Reggio to the South, forcing the germans to pull back and decrease the pressure on the Allied front lines.

The gradually improving level of organization within the committed allied ground formations

parsifal said:

I dont see how all this navel gazing and uesswork is more accurate than an extract from a published source that gives strenghts, type and availability for both the US and brit/CW nations on a squadron by squadron basis. The figures are already there...why are w re-inventing the wheel here.

Click to expand...

your source give
1, 14, 82, 325 FG on the 38
31, 52 FG on the Spit
27, 86 FG on the A-36
81, 350 FG on the 39
33, 57, 79 FG on the 40

in red the difference with my source "Air force combat units of World War II"
i have also a 324th FG with the 40 but checking best this group was not operative at time (back in operation the 30th october)
the 325th FG never used the 38, at time (august) used the P-40 but was reequipped from late september and back in iperation the 14th december with the 47

for my source (the statistical digest) the strenght of FG was 111-126 planes (incluse reserves) as february '45

Juha said:

Hello Njaco
Sicily and Southern Italy meant fairly secure Med for convoys. Foggia was very important to strategic bombing campaign, targets in Austria, Czechoslovakia, Schlesia and Southern Poland were clearly easier to reach from there than from England and targets in Hungary and Romania became in reach. Also possibility to support partisans in Yugoslavia and in Northern Greece opened. There were important armament industry for ex. around Wien, and of course the oil targets around Ploesti and Wien and for ex at Blechhammer.

Juha

Click to expand...

Yes, I largely agree - I did post earlier (no one disagreed). This gives a minimum requirement for the Allis in Italy, if the Germans want to retreat further fine, but it may be of greater benefit to use the resources elsewhere or at least to threaten elsewhere.
It gives more potential to have an earlier Anvil, who knows, perhaps Normandy late summer '43!! The main objective with the italian campaign, was to reduce shipping by going safely through the Med., knock Italy out of the war, force the Germans to spread their forces away from north-west France, and provide bases for the air-war - all done at this point.
For the sake of keeping forces active - and then go through Cassino, doesn't seem good use of resources!

Vincenzo said:

Drgdong
i think that number for P-51 include also A-36, there is no A-36 seperate entry in the table.
I try to check FG in MTO (i hope i don't wrong some)
1st P-38
14th P-38
27th A-36
31st Spit
33rd P-40
52nd Spit
57th P-40
79th P-40
81st P-39
82nd P-38
86th A-36 (i'had writed P-40 but was a wrong entry as in the sum the A-36 FG are 2)
324th P-40
325th P-40
350th P-39

so 14 FG, 3 with 38, 2 with Spit, 2 with A-36, 2 with 39, 5 with 40

ever for the same time end august '43

Click to expand...

This is the list I have, after cross checking. Note, however that 2 P-39 groups would be ~ 150 in count and five P-40 groups would be ~ 375 or roughly half the count of the USAAF Statistical Digest which was my point regarding the high number (290/625) respectively for MTO counts? The squadron totals for the Fighter Groups listed in Parsifal's reference (~25 per squadron) would be about right at peak strength in summer 1943. At peak strength each squadron would have about 35-40 pilots and Group HQ would have 4 (Gp CO, Deputy, Ops and Asst Ops Officers). The Group pilots would be flying a/c allocated to squadron - even if specifically assigned to them.

Additionally, the 324th was in combat ops from late 1942 and still on the 12th AF TO&E even though they were re-training from July through October 30, 1943.. so they must be counted in the list of MTO P-40's.

parsifal said:

Hi Dg

I accept that those elements stated as coming ashore across the beach in fact were airdropped...however your critique goes a lot further than that, and seems to claim that these several battalions of airborne troops were responsible for saving the entire beachhead. Just not the case, though ther4 is no denying that the arrival of the 82nd did a lot to help the American sector. The arrival of the British Commandoes had similar effects in the British sector.

However the arrival of these forces, whilst of imense help, were not the tipping points that saved the landings. No single event in the immediate history surrounding the Salerno landings can claim that. no single unit can claim that either...

Significant events that saved the allies, include, the intervention of the support forces, centred around HMS Warspite and Valiant, but also including direct gunfire suport by the Destroyers attached to providing direect oncall fire support to individual battalions. This sytem had been first used in Husky, and had been responsible for saving the Americans at Gela, once again it proved vital to the US forces at Salerno.

The eventual landing of artillery on the beaches


The concentrated efforts of the allied air forces that provided an unrelenting level of CAS to the beleagured ground forces.

The developing threat to the Germans position caused by the steadily advanacing elements of the 8th Army, coming up from Taranto mand Reggio to the South, forcing the germans to pull back and decrease the pressure on the Allied front lines.

Click to expand...

Parsifal - I agree All your points.

Having said that, Mark Clark - the force commander - is the source of the observation and comment regarding 1st and 2nd Battalion night drop and subsequent actions on the 13th and 14th pertaining to stopping the German advance to the sea..

Right or wrong, the 504 and 505 PIR impact is also cited in the US Army Tactical studies as the key pivotal contribution in preventing total disaster during the critical opening days of the Salerno invasion.