Singapore carrier squadron - what aircraft to deploy?

[Admiral Beez]

as a further comment on the aviation fuel situation. A Swordfish carried about 167 imp gallons of fuel in it's standard tanks, long range tanks could be fitted, a 60imp gallon tank in the cockpit when carrying a torpedo if range was needed or a larger (69imp G?) tank in place of the torpedo for recconasance duties.
If we assume a fuel capacity of 236imp gallons per plane and using an 8 plane search pattern twice a day we are using 3776imp gallons a day. The old carrier with a bit over 17,000 gallons is good for about 4 days worth of searches and bit more, but is conducting no other air activities.

Yes, but that's the fuel burn no matter if they're operating from Southampton, Gibraltar, Alexandria or Singapore. The Far East CBG isn't expected to conduct distant USN-like Pacific ops. The enemy is right on their gates in Japanese-held FIC, there's no need to travel far. Instead the pre-war RN carriers are operating in the Gulf of Thailand and South China Sea, close to fuel supplies in Singapore and Hong Kong, where they are monitoring IJN and IJA movements.

Once the fighting starts, the carriers will again be close to fuel supplies, in the Gulf of Thailand to stop any amphibious assaults from FIC or Thailand into Malaya. This will likely be where at least one, if not all three carriers will perish. The surviving carrier(s) will likely be the one(s) sent back to Singapore for refueling on the day the IJAF torpedo strike arrives.

 

[Shortround6]

This will likely be where at least one, if not all three carriers will perish.

Then what is the point except to show that British carrier crews can die as bravely as British battleship crews?

The small British carriers will be monitoring very little as the Swordfish has very little survivability against Japanese fighters, either army or navy.

The example of fuel usage was as a counterpoint to the idea that one of these carriers really could have done much as a recon platform at the battle of Coral sea. Unless the allies had a real good idea of where to look in the first place the Eagle could have run out of av gas before it's planes found the Japanese fleet. US carriers had planes in the air, both search and CAP when ever they thought they were in a danger zone.
The Lexington held 114,000imp gallons of AV gas. Even with bigger planes that needed more fuel it could sustain operations for a much longer period of time.
The 3 small British carriers don't have enough aircraft (unless you pick one mission and devote the entire air group of all 3 carriers to that mission leaving gaping holes in capability) to actually do much and their fuel stocks are such that they are only good for a few days or one-two strikes before having to pull out and resupply.

They offer too little capability for too much cost (even if they can be considered cheap in cost).

 

[Kevin J]

Yes, but that's the fuel burn no matter if they're operating from Gibraltar, Alexandria or Singapore. The Far East CBG isn't expected to conduct distant USN-like Pacific ops. The enemy is right on their gates in Japanese-held FIC, there's no need to travel far. Instead the pre-war RN carriers are operating in the Gulf of Thailand and South China Sea, close to fuel supplies in Singapore and Hong Kong, where they are monitoring IJN and IJA movements. Once the fighting starts, the carriers will again be in the Gulf of Thailand to stop any amphibious assaults from FIC or Thailand into Malaya. This will likely be where at least one, if not all three carriers will perish.

You don't need carriers to launch attacks on the landing beaches at either Pattani or Kota Bharu. You need airfields on Penang Island. It's about 210 miles to either location. You need Fortress Penang as much as Fortress Singapore. You need radar there to help you intercept incoming raids, you need an Observer Corps located between Penang and the two landing beaches. You need fighters with a 200 mile radius of action to escort your strike aircraft. That means you need Hurricane IIb's equipped with 2 x 45 IG drop tanks, or Buffalo I's fully loaded with fuel and vulnerable in a dogfight from the moment they take off. I'd prefer Hurricanes. You don't need a bunch of vulnerable old aircraft carriers. You need medivac transports to send out resupplies and evacuate the wounded defenders of the landing beaches, so either Bristol Bombay or HP Harrows. Your bombers need to be able to dive bomb, and be able to drop mines and torpedoes. I'd suggest the HP Hampden. It was almost as fast as the Ki-27's defending the invasion force. The Hayabusas were used for air superiority, escorting bombers attacking our airfields. So maybe some Hurricane IIa's to defend Penang Island itself, maybe Hurricane IIc's with long range tanks for ground attack.

 

[Admiral Beez]

You don't need carriers to launch attacks on the landing beaches at either Pattani or Kota Bharu. You need airfields on Penang Island. It's about 210 miles to either location. You need Fortress Penang as much as Fortress Singapore. You need radar there to help you intercept incoming raids, you need an Observer Corps located between Penang and the two landing beaches. You need fighters with a 200 mile radius of action to escort your strike aircraft. That means you need Hurricane IIb's equipped with 2 x 45 IG drop tanks, or Buffalo I's fully loaded with fuel and vulnerable in a dogfight from the moment they take off. I'd prefer Hurricanes. You don't need a bunch of vulnerable old aircraft carriers. You need medivac transports to send out resupplies and evacuate the wounded defenders of the landing beaches, so either Bristol Bombay or HP Harrows. Your bombers need to be able to dive bomb, and be able to drop mines and torpedoes. I'd suggest the HP Hampden. It was almost as fast as the Ki-27's defending the invasion force. The Hayabusas were used for air superiority, escorting bombers attacking our airfields. So maybe some Hurricane IIa's to defend Penang Island itself, maybe Hurricane IIc's with long range tanks for ground attack.

You keep posting with shopping lists of what's needed, rather than considering how to utilize what we've got, i.e. three slow and small carriers. Certainly we should coordinate with the RAF to counter the Japanese landings on Malaya. Hopefully the carriers can keep whatever RN surface units were sent (I'm not sure under these circumstances that PoW is sent to Malaya at all) out of easy range of IJAF strike bombers.

 

[Kevin J]

You keep posting with shopping lists of what's needed, rather than considering how to utilize what we've got, i.e. three slow and small carriers. Certainly we should coordinate with the RAF to counter the Japanese landings on Malaya. Hopefully the carriers can keep whatever RN surface units were sent (im not sure PoW is sent to Malaya at all) out of easy range of IJAF strike bombers.

You can't effectively use 3 slow and small carriers. Their combined air strength is inadequate.

 

[Kevin J]

You can't effectively use 3 slow and small carriers. Their combined air strength is inadequate.

Perhaps Eagle could have Fulmars for fighter recce and Albacores for strike. Argus has Sea Hurricanes. Hermes has Swordfish for ASW. Lose one and your doomed.

 

[GrauGeist]

You would also need a solid ASW plan because the IJN had a substantial sub presence in the region and those carriers were painfully slow.

 

[Kevin J]

You would also need a solid ASW plan because the IJN had a substantial sub presence in the region and those carriers were painfully slow.

Penang Island is the perfect unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Indian Ocean able to attack the Japanese invasion forces on the East Coast of Malaya and Siam.

 

[Admiral Beez]

You would also need a solid ASW plan because the IJN had a substantial sub presence in the region and those carriers were painfully slow.

By late 1941 the British are the leaders in ASW. Hopefully both the FAA Swordfish and the destroyer escorts sent along with the carriers have their best anti-sub game on.

 

[Shortround6]

Hopefully the carriers can keep whatever RN surface units were sent (im not sure PoW is sent to Malaya at all) out of easy range of IJAF strike bombers.

It was the IJNAS that they had to worry about.

If they stayed out of the range of these aircraft they stayed out of range of attacking the invasion ships.

 

[Shortround6]

By late 1941 the British are the leaders in ASW. Hopefully both the FAA Swordfish and the destroyer escorts sent along with the carriers have their best anti-sub game on.

They may have been world leaders in 1941 but that is more the one eyed man with cataracts leading the totally blind. British ASW in 1941/early 42 was a far cry from what it would be in 1943/44.

 

[Admiral Beez]

It was the IJNAS that they had to worry about. View attachment 565134

If they stayed out of the range of these aircraft they stayed out of range of attacking the invasion ships.

True, you have to go within harm's reach in order to have any chance of attacking the invasion ships. But if Force Z has carriers, it doesn't need to position its ships within easy reach of IJNAF strike squadrons.

If we can assume Admiral Phillips, HMS PoW and Repulse are are sent to Malaya per history, and that Phillips still refuses to both disclose his location to the RAF and to ask for their timely fighter cover, then the RN's carriers are Force A's only hope. At 25 knots, HMS Eagle is about as fast as PoW, so this the carrier I'd send.

Looking at the map above, at around 14:00 when the Japanese aircraft are spotted, Eagle's CAP, vectored by PoW's radar could have shot them down. If Hermes is with Eagle, a Swordish strike against the covering force may have been possible. Obsolete biplanes, I give little chance of success if IJN fighters are present, but might get lucky.

 

[tomo pauk]

Post #51 is dumb just like that?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Last time. Play nice everyone.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And before simply calling something dumb, how about countering it with an argument that is not dumb too, such as one with facts?

SMFH...

 

[Admiral Beez]

Post #51 is dumb just like that?

My fault, meant to hit agree on my Blackberry's small screen. Fixed it. Why do we have a dumb button?

S Shortround6 Apologies, post 51 is appreciated and not dumb at all. I enjoy digging into the historical facts, my reply below.

 

[Admiral Beez]

They may have been world leaders in 1941 but that is more the one eyed man with cataracts leading the totally blind. British ASW in 1941/early 42 was a far cry from what it would be in 1943/44.

I agree, the RN still has a way to go on ASW, but hopefully some of the destroyer captains and ASW specialists sent to Malaya in 1941 are veterans of the fighting the U-Boats. Looking at U-Boat losses, 1941 does show improvement over 1940 Chart of U-boat losses - Fates - German U-boats of WWII - Kriegsmarine - uboat.net. But you're right, 1943 shows massive improvement for the Allies, also more U-boats to sink.

As for the FAA, looking at 1940-1941 U-Boat losses by aircraft are few, and only one was lost to a FAA aircraft dropping depth charges, The Type IXB U-boat U-64 - German U-boats of WWII - uboat.net. In Jan 1942, depth charge armed Swordfish claimed another. Short Sunderlands and Catalinas did better. Perhaps RAF flying boats and destroyers is where we need to focus ASW airpower in Malaya, leaving the carriers with torpedo, fighter and recon roles.

With RN carriers known to be in the area from Jan 1941 onwards, I expect many IJN submariners will be itching for a deployment to FIC and Formosa. British aircraft carriers seem to have bad luck with German submarines, with HMS Courageous, Ark Royal, Audacity, Eagle and Avenger being lost. Our three old carriers won't do well if hit from the submarine-launched Type 95 Long Lance, Type 95 torpedo - Wikipedia

 

[Admiral Beez]

Penang Island is the perfect unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Indian Ocean able to attack the Japanese invasion forces on the East Coast of Malaya and Siam.

I agree, it should have been made into the main RAF air base and fortress. Imagine wave after wave of Bristol Beaufighters and Hampdens flying from there, with radar-directed Spitfires or Hurricanes. It's better placed than Singapore for the RN's primary base - I wonder if it was ever considered? Too swampy perhaps? Though more likely that only Singapore Island was ceded to the British, with Penang Island remaining under the Sultan's control, albeit with British "protection".

It's ridiculous how Percival ordered the withdrawal from the Island and evacuation of its white population. What sort of message did that send to the locals? Unlike the Victorian-era Lei Yue Mun Fort in Hong Kong, where the British, Canadians and other CW troops fought to the last man, I don't think Fort Cornwallis fired a single shot.

I toured both the Hong Kong fort and the British/CW war cemetery in 2018 and the place is very moving, you can see bullet holes in the Lei Yue Mun Fort's trench and bastions.

 

[Kevin J]

I agree, it should have been made into the main RAF air base and fortress. Imagine wave after wave of Bristol Beaufighters and Hampdens flying from there, with radar-directed Spitfires or Hurricanes. It's better placed than Singapore for the RN's primary base - I wonder if it was ever considered? Too swampy perhaps? Though more likely that only Singapore Island was ceded to the British, with Penang Island remaining under the Sultan's control, albeit with British "protection".

It's ridiculous how Percival ordered the withdrawal from the Island and evacuation of its white population. What sort of message did that send to the locals? Unlike the Victorian-era Lei Yue Mun Fort in Hong Kong, where the British, Canadians and other CW troops fought to the last man, I don't think Fort Cornwallis fired a single shot.

I toured both the Hong Kong fort and the British/CW war cemetery in 2018 and the place is very moving, you can see bullet holes in the Lei Yue Mun Fort's trench and bastions.

Penang like Singapore was a colony as was Malacca, Dinding, Christmas Island, Cocos Islands and Labuan, so we could have done whatever we wanted to.
Straits Settlements - Wikipedia

 

[Admiral Beez]

Penang like Singapore was a colony as was Malacca, Dinding, Christmas Island, Cocos Islands and Labuan, so we could have done whatever we wanted to.
Straits Settlements - Wikipedia

Instead of wasting money on building the Singapore naval base, perhaps smaller bases for both naval and RAF could be built in Penang, and across British Pacific territories. Just look at how many islands Britain controlled, but with little investment in their defence or use as a barrier to defend Australia, etc.

The mostly USA (plus ANZ) forces that re-took the Solomons (for the British) suffered 10,600 killed. Retaking PNG cost the USA 13,000 dead (plus >7K ANZ/CW forces). I know the First World War took much of Britain's treasure, but to neglect your empire's defences like this is nuts. Look at the investment the USA put into retaking Britain's territory in the Gilbert Islands at the Battles of Tarawa and Makin. I wonder what the Americans and locals in the Gilbert Islands territory thought when the British governor, Henry Evans Maude arrived to take command in 1946. He didn't waste anytime setting up a new British administration.

These small islands should have been submarine bases, akin to the secret RN base on Diega Garcia in the Indian Ocean.