Singapore carrier squadron - what aircraft to deploy?

[Admiral Beez]

A few historical changes.... HMS Courageous and Glorious survive undamaged to at least the end of 1940, joining HMS Illustrious and Eagle on a much larger assault on the Italian navy at Taranto in Nov. 1940.

After Japan invades French Indo-China in Sept 1940 and the Italian fleet scuppered and HMS Formidable enters service in Nov 1940, in Dec. 1940 Churchill decides to send a force of older and slow carriers to Malaya as a deterrent to further Japanese aggression. Here we have to beg the indulgence of our resident contrarians who feel compelled to tell us why something wouldn't, couldn't or shouldn't have occurred. Perhaps this isn't the thread for you.

That aside....HMS Hermes, Eagle and Argus are assigned to Singapore. What aircraft do we send with them? In Dec. 1940 the choices are Fulmar (too big for Hermes' lifts), Skua, Sea Gladiator, Swordfish and perhaps if the force can wait, Buffalo and Sea Hurricane ( The first Sea Hurricanes joined No 880 squadron at Arbroath, Scotland, in January 1941). Hermes is already in the Indian Ocean with her twelve Stringbags. There isn't a FAA station at Singapore, so some space will need to be made at RAF Seletar or elsewhere for aircraft maintenance, parts storage, personnel, etc. There is a FAA station in Ceylon.

 

[fubar57]

So we strip carriers from the Malta campaign?

 

[Admiral Beez]

So we strip carriers from the Malta campaign?

No, Glorious and Courageous stand in for Eagle and Argus. That's a larger contribution to the Malta campaign, not stripping it at all.

 

[Admiral Beez]

One challenge we may face is available aircraft and aircrew. With Glorious and Courageous in service, plus Illustrious, Furious, Ark Royal and as of end Nov 1940 HMS Formidable each demanding three to four squadrons of FAA fighter and strike aircraft, what's left for Argus, Eagle and Hermes?

Hermes is already in the Indian Ocean with a dozen Swordfish out of Ceylon. So, the question is what aircraft do Argus and Eagle sail from Britain with? If all the Swordfish are needed, they can pull from the reserve of Blackburn Sharks and Fairey Seals. For fighters, pull four squadrons from the 75 non-folding Martlets the UK received by Dec. 1940 (too wide for Hermes' lifts).

Here's Argus and Eagle sailing to join Hermes, with a temporary heavy escort.

 

[Kevin J]

An interesting idea with lots of what-ifs. However, the flaw in your idea of Eagle, Hermes and Argus being put together as a viable Far East Fleet is the Japanese reaction, which no doubt will be "you cannot be serious" followed by guffaws of laughter.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Granted I don't know much about pre-war U.K. carriers but can these three, Hermes, Eagle and Argus operate together as a cohesive task group? Speed wise are they a reasonable match for each other or are you thinking they'd operate as separate units?

 

[Kevin J]

Granted I don't know much about pre-war U.K. carriers but can these three, Hermes, Eagle and Argus operate together as a cohesive task group? Speed wise are they a reasonable match for each other or are you thinking they'd operate as separate units?

Argus is slow, less than 20 knots, the other two over. Eagle and Hermes together are equivalent to the an unarmoured Illustrious in aircraft strength. Argus is a converted cruise liner suitable only for training.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Granted I don't know much about pre-war U.K. carriers but can these three, Hermes, Eagle and Argus operate together as a cohesive task group? Speed wise are they a reasonable match for each other or are you thinking they'd operate as separate units?

With their limited air groups and Hermes' inability to operate any non-folding monoplane fighters (Buffalo, available in spring 1941 would fit), I'd operate them as a single CBG, supporting each other.

I'd want to see all three ships rotate through Singapore dock for upgrades, including adding a crash barrier to Hermes and outriggers to all to allow enlarged CAG via USN-like deck parking. Does Singapore have the ability to quickly widen Hermes two lifts? Otherwise any non-folding fighters are limited to Gladiators in 1940 and Buffaloes in spring 1941.

I can't estimate how many aircraft each can realistically carry If the mix is folding TSR and non-folding fighters. Anyone fancy a go?

 

[Admiral Beez]

An interesting idea with lots of what-ifs. However, the flaw in your idea of Eagle, Hermes and Argus being put together as a viable Far East Fleet is the Japanese reaction, which no doubt will be "you cannot be serious" followed by guffaws of laughter.

Did Imperial Japanese ever laugh? But yes, our force is an old, small and slow one, well suited to the poor quality troops and defences allocated to Malaya.

Perhaps our three little carriers will survive to 1942 (visiting US when war starts?), and swap out their CAG for folding Martlet Mk.2 and (via Ceylon) Albacores. That should about double their strength.

 

[Shortround6]

They are limited not only by deck/hanger space but by fuel and weapons storage space. Not a lot sense jumping through hoops to modify both planes and ships if you run out of fuel on day 3 or 4 of operations or have resort to dropping bundles of toilet paper on enemy ships.

The Eagle started construction with the aircraft petrol stored in tins. This was changed to an 8,100 imp gallon tank. in 1925 petrol storage as increased to 14,190 imp gallons,, although it is written that her bomb magazines were increased in size during her 1936 refit. during a refit that lasted from 26 October 1941 to 9 January 1942 her fuel oil storage was reduced in order to increase the petrol storage by 3,000 gallons.


The Argus spent most of her career in WW II as either a training ship or aircraft ferry.

Petrol storage on the Ark Royal was 100,000 imp gallons.
Petrol storage on the Ark Glorious and Courageous was 34,500 imp gallons.

Not all carriers are created equal and sticking more planes with folding wings on some of these old ships means you have to be very, very careful about when you fly the planes or you are going to be caught with hangers and flight decks full of planes with no petrol.

At 100 gallons per flight (a rather modest allowance) the Eagle was good for about 170 flights/sorties of her aircraft, adjust up or down as you see fit and remember that there should almost always be some sort of CAP during daylight hours and that just two planes in the air for 12 hours can burn 950-1000 gallons a day (40 gallons an hour per plane)

Many of the escort carriers converted from merchant men had their initial fuel capacities cut to around 35,000-40,000 gallons to inprove stability ( a few ships got as much as 1000 tons of concrete ballast) but the point is that these three old carriers were very limited in their ability to operate more than one-two dozen airplanes for more than very short period of time.

 

[Admiral Beez]

S Shortround6 I think even two dozen aircraft is likely not possible, especially for Argus and Hermes. If we can expand Argus from the eight or ten aircraft she normally carried to something closer to twelve to eighteen that's an accomplishment. Hermes should be able add another six-plane flight for an eighteen aircraft CAG. As the largest ship here, HMS Eagle will be the flagship. Wikipedia says 25-30 aircraft, but I suspect this is where we'll see your suggested two dozen, max.

With the CBG cruising at well below 20 knots, perhaps an avgas supply ship can be sent with them, with pioneering (for the RN) mods for Replenishment at sea (RAS) made at Singapore. Otherwise, none of these three carriers will be fighting far from shore, avgas aside, they don't have the bunker fuel. If they survive the fall of Malaya, they'll need every drop of fuel to get to Ceylon (1,500 nmi) or Darwin (1,900 nmi) before perhaps returning for Java Sea.

 

[Kevin J]

What the RN needs is a 3 ocean navy resulting from the Washington Treaty to counter the American 2 ocean navy and the Japanese one ocean navy. Problem is, we can't afford it because of all those WW1 debts. We can't even afford adequate radar coverage and a doubling of the RAF in Malaya. Borneo doesn't even have any air cover. We only get close if we include the French navy. So we need a political union with France and Benelux and that just wasn't going to happen. We do have the spare ships at the end of WW1, but we scrapped them.

 

[Kevin J]

Alternately, we keep Italy sweet and avoid war with them by letting them have Imperial Germany's African colonies. Do you realise that in Africa, out of all our colonies, only Ghana and Uganda were profitable? We need Sierra Leone for its natural harbour at Freetown, Gold Coast (Ghana) and Uganda because they were profitable, the Rhodesias and South Africa because they were run by Brits and made money. The rest, including Kenya didn't. Kenya is useful because of its deep natural harbour, so we keep it. I suggest we buy off the Italians. If we do that then we have resources to defend our Asia-Pacific assets.

 

[Kevin J]

Then there's India. We could have struck a deal with the Muslims there. So independence for Pakistan and Bangladesh. We give them Erin and Agincourt before WW2, so they have a small navy. They can help us defend Malaya. We keep India.

 

[Kevin J]

Nigeria gets its independence.

 

[Admiral Beez]

K Kevin J

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes. Please...

 

[Kevin J]

Britain has Imperial overstretch. Its defence of the Empire is constrained by money and there's no way round it even in your alternate reality scenario.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Britain has Imperial overstretch. Its defence of the Empire is constrained by money and there's no way round it even in your alternate reality scenario.

If HMS Glorious and Courageous are active to end 1940 and beyond, the raid on Taranto will be more devastating, and perhaps occur earlier than Nov. 1940. With much of the Italian fleet neutralized, thus impacting the Axis' Malta and North Africa plans, and HMS Formidable commissioning in Nov 1940, there's no reason my three old carriers can't be sent to Malaya in Dec. 1940.

As for what's financially feasible in the period before hostilities commence in Dec. 1941; if HMS Prince of Wales, Repulse, Indomitable, Exeter, Mauritius, HMAS Perth, a half dozen destroyers, >40,000 troops, over two hundred modern aircraft (mostly Buffaloes and Blenheims) can be allocated to Malaya (plus the forces at Ceylon), I'm sure three less needed carriers and perhaps a total of 40-50 second line carrier aircraft can be accounted for.

Don't forget, HMS Eagle, Hermes and Argus, their personnel and aircraft exist on the government books regardless of where they're deployed. Unless you're suggesting they be scrapped or mothballed, we might as well send them eastward. If any of these three aircraft carriers survive the fall of Malaya, Java Sea in Feb 1942 and Nagumo's April 1942 raid on Ceylon, they can go to Darwin and participate at the Battle of Coral Sea. Hopefully by then they have updated and enlarged their CAGs.

 

[fubar57]

Prince of Wales and Repulse sunk Dec.10 1941. You haven't much time to raise them off the bottom and re-crew them