Small airforces going to war: what would you do.

[Juha]

Hello Marcel
A couple other points
Built a good communication system and buy enough radios
Built a good early-warning system. At that time this means trained observers, posts for them and good communications between posts and control centres. Enough exercises in peace time to clear the bugs and to keep the system in good working order.
Built many small, secret, well camouflaged dispersal airfields with good access to wire communications and train personnel to work from them.
Teach a good camouflage discipline to ground forces.
Built enough air raid shelters for civilian population.

Juha

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Try to build a Bf 109 or Spitfire.

 

[Juha]

Hello SW
odds are that that would not succeed, better idea is to have something important for Germany, then you can buy Bf 109s as Swiss and Yukos succeeded to do, but that would not work for majority of small countries.

Juha

 

[Lucky13]

Soren
Finns did it during Winter War 1939-40, fighting alone against a superpower of the time.


Juha

Ahum...and our sons, brothers and fathers just watched? Remember "Finlands sak ar var sak"? F19? Think 20.000 Swedes joined forces with you.

 

[Marcel]

To get an idea, this is what the Dutch military thought they needed (4 year planning in 1936).
They needed 3 regiments:

1st regiment (Air defence):

• 36 reconnaissance a/c
• 54 Bombers (no specific type)
• 36 Fast flying and fast climbing fighters (interceptors)
• 36 "Jachtkruisers" or heavily armed patrolling fighters with long endurance

2nd regiment (Support for ground army)

• 72 reconnaissance a/c
• 48 light recon a/c
• 36 fighters
• 36 "Jachtkruisers

3rd regiment

• 48 training a/c (33 reconnaisance, 6 fighters and 6 "Stunt" a/c)

The types considered were for reconnaissance mainly Fokker biplanes (C.V and C.X) and Koolhoven FK.51. The latter was also the main trainings a/c (Buy from your own factories -> keep your economy running), considered Do17/215 (215 ordered), Fokker CG.2 (ordered)
The "Jachtkruiser" was of course the Fokker G.1, which could also be used for recon and bombing duties.
Fokker T.V was one of the bombers, and they were searching for alternatives.
Fighter of 2nd regiment was the D.XXI.
For fast interceptor were considered:

• Koolhoven FK.58
• He112 (Jumo 210 Ea)
• He112 (DB610a)
• Hawker Hurricane (still available march 1939)
• Spitfire
• Several Fokker types (like the D.23)
• De Schelde S21/S22
• Curtis CW21B (bought, but too late)

For training several types, bought was a.o. Focke Wulf FW.58

 

[Marcel]

Marcel
As I wrote dive bomber was the first choise, for those seduced by douhetism night bombing was only realistic alternative. Also with night bombers it would be possible to attack enemy airfields and big troop concentrations with good bombloads. And a large power tended to have large troop consentrations.

Juha

Agreed, but how many real useable night bombers were available in 1936-1939?

Hello Marcel
A couple other points
Built a good communication system and buy enough radios
Built a good early-warning system. At that time this means trained observers, posts for them and good communications between posts and control centres. Enough exercises in peace time to clear the bugs and to keep the system in good working order.
Built many small, secret, well camouflaged dispersal airfields with good access to wire communications and train personnel to work from them.
Teach a good camouflage discipline to ground forces.
Built enough air raid shelters for civilian population.

Juha

Good points, especially the communication, which was usually the biggest problem. The secret airfields gives you new demands for the aircraft, don't they? You'll need simple, rugged a/c, which must be able to operate from less than ideal runways.

 

[Juha]

Hello Lucky 13
Swedish help wasn't insignificant.
IIRC Swedish volunteer ground forces took over a sector around Märkäjärvi in Northern Finland, which had been static after Finns had hit hard Soviet forces in the area and pushed frontline back around Märkäjärvi. The arrival of Swedish volunteers allowed Finns to transfer 5 infantry battalions to the hellish fighting around the Bay of Viipuri in SW Finland.
Also F19 (IIRC 12 Gladiator Mk Is and 4 Hawker Harts plus 2 transport planes manned by Swedish volunteers) took over the air defence of Northern Finland with some Swedish volunteer AA troops. Also Sweden "loaned" a number of 37mm Bofors A/T guns, Finnish army used the same gun and it was in licence production in Finland and we got few field pieces also. Incoming fighters for ex Fiat G.50s were assembled in Sweden and then flown to Finland, also Sweden and Norway allowed the flights of for ex Blenheims which were coming into service in FAF to fly through their airspace and made intermediate landings on Norwegian and Swedish airfields. Anything else? I might well have forgot something.

Juha

 

[vikingBerserker]

Norway invading Denmark ? Are you serious or is this a joke ?

Rule #3 states, you do not know who your enemy will be.

 

[Juha]

Hello Marcel
on need of rugged a/c, yes, rugged P-36/Hawk 75A was capable to operate from rather promitive a/fs but I'm not sure on CW21, Dutch used them in DUtch East-India, they might have some problems there. Anyway one solution is to disperse Hawk75s and keep CW21s on better airfields, after all their main purpose would have been to protect economic assets and intercept LR recon a/c, genarally being farer from front-line than Hawk75s.

 

[Lucky13]

Yeah....you did forgot something, MATE!

To recommend a good book about the winter war, preferably in English...

Thanks for the info! Always curious to know about the war....

 

[Juha]

Marcel
IMHO solution would have to be "fighter heavy" less recon and bombers, train fighter pilots for recon work. Thinking Finland with its heavily forested landscape, leave ground support by AF to minimum and rely on artillery instead because your ground support a/c would suffer heavy losses in hands of much more numerous enemy fighter force, sneak attacks being best solution for own ground support a/c but one cannot count that cloudiness would be suitable for your a/c when need to ground attacks arrise.

Juha

 

[Juha]

Hello Lucky
the lifeline of Finland during Winter War ran through Sweden, we got IIRC much of our foreign help through Sweden, it might well be that vast majority game from there, some might game through Danish Straights and then over Baltic Sea, but that was a bit cauldron because Soviet bases in Baltic States. So also the Swedish volunter AA troops around Oulu were important, because our only railconnection to Sweden ran there.

I have info on foreign help for Finland but not time to dig it out and after all it is off-the topic in this tread save F19 and AA.

Juha

 

[tomo pauk]

Hi, Juha,

How many Soviet planes did Suomi heavy AAA managed to destroy?
What was type of targets Soviet bombers attacked (pinpoint, or large scale, like cities)?

Hi, Marcel,
How well equipped was Dutch army with heavy light AAA? What is the breakdown of planes destroyed by type of AAA?

 

[Marcel]

Hi, Marcel,
How well equipped was Dutch army with heavy light AAA? What is the breakdown of planes destroyed by type of AAA?

Hi Tomo,
As with all weapons, there was not enough AA guns. What they had was 232 light guns, (20 mm and 40 mm Oerlikon) and 32 of Dutch made 7.5 cm (7,5 tl) guns. Some factories bought their own AA guns (helped by the Government), bringing the total to 355 AA guns.
For the breakdown of type, I'll have to study. I have a list of units and their claims of those days, but it's difficult to determine which gun shot down what. I think you could safely say that most of the A/C were shot down by light AA (2-4 cm).

 

[Marcel]

Marcel
IMHO solution would have to be "fighter heavy" less recon and bombers, train fighter pilots for recon work. Thinking Finland with its heavily forested landscape, leave ground support by AF to minimum and rely on artillery instead because your ground support a/c would suffer heavy losses in hands of much more numerous enemy fighter force, sneak attacks being best solution for own ground support a/c but one cannot count that cloudiness would be suitable for your a/c when need to ground attacks arrise.

Juha

Agreed and would have worked in the NL as well. Artillery is much cheaper and less vulnerable if you keep the Stukas of their back with fighters.

 

[Soren]

It all really depends on who is most likely going to attack you, and in Denmark, Norway, Poland, Belgium Holland's case that would be Germany. And in this case it's better to just capitulate. As for France, now they on the other hand had some opportunities to explore.

Finnland was lucky that its' terrain was so well suited for defense and that like I said the Soviet army by that time was just made up of a bunch of leaderless amateurs. The Soviets stopped the German army later on yes, by inpart pouring so many troops into the German meatgrinder that it eventually couldn't keep up. But the Soviets were saved by their harsh winter, the sheer size of their country and by refusing to give a number of cities esp. the city of Stalingrad, forcing the war to transpire into bitter house to house, sewer to sewer fighting.

 

[Juha]

Soren
Quote:" As for the Finns, well their military was well equipped in many areas…"

Would you give for ex. 4 key areas in which Finnish army was well equipped?

Quote:" by inpart pouring so many troops into the German meatgrinder that it eventually couldn't keep up."

How they succeeded in that, there were 177 million Soviet citizens vs over 75 million citizens of Greater Germany plus 20 million Romanians, 9,2 million Hungarians and 3,7 million Finns. Romanian troops were not very good but surely better than "a bunch of leaderless amateurs" and because Finland's mobilization was so thorough, our army had some 630,000 men in July 41, so it was very big for the size of our population, it would have been a large army for a nation of 6 million. So something like 177 million vs c. 108 million, minus troops left in Occupied Europe and small DAK in Africa. How in earth Germany's very professional army could not handle "a bunch of leaderless amateurs" with help of its allies when there was only two times more those "leaderless amateurs" than combined axis forces or at least should have been when we compared the population bases?

Juha

 

[Soren]

The Soviet army contained close to 5 times as many men as the German army had in the east, plus the fact that millions of Soviet combattens have never been listed as actual soldiers, yet they fought alongside the soldiers.

I think it is pretty telling that over 12 million Soviet soldiers were killed during WW2, plus a little over 1 million western Allies, and for that 3.25 million German soldiers had to pay with their lives. 80% of the German losses were on the eastern front, so thats ~2.65 million Germans for 12+ million Russians, which is not even counting the millions of unlisted Soviet troops. Anyway that's a 5:1 ratio.

 

[Juha]

Soren, how about answering my first question?
Quote:" As for the Finns, well their military was well equipped in many areas…"

Would you give for ex. 4 key areas in which Finnish army was well equipped?

Are you really sure that in 1941 the Soviet Army engaged combat against axis had close to 5 times as many men as the German army had in the east? Part of Red Army stayed in South and in East, the fact that is sometimes forgot. And as large segment of German soldiers belonged in any given time to Replacement Army it was same in other side. Are you sure that you are not comparing apples to oranges ie the whole Soviet Army to the German army in the east?

3,25 million German soldiers, don't forget at least 230 000 Austrian soldiers, they also belonged to Wehrmacht, I cannot remember were Sudeten and Elsass-Lothringeans soldiers included to the figure of 3,25million German soldiers. I have seen figures of 3,25 million German soldiers died but that 3,71 million serving in Wehrmacht lost their lives, that incl Austrians, non German and Volksdeutsch Waffen-SS troops, also IMHO Sudeten and Elsass-Lothringerian soldiers. And do you really think that other axis forces didn't kill a single Red Army soldiers?

Juha

 

[tomo pauk]

Hi Tomo,
As with all weapons, there was not enough AA guns. What they had was 232 light guns, (20 mm and 40 mm Oerlikon) and 32 of Dutch made 7.5 cm (7,5 tl) guns. Some factories bought their own AA guns (helped by the Government), bringing the total to 355 AA guns.
For the breakdown of type, I'll have to study. I have a list of units and their claims of those days, but it's difficult to determine which gun shot down what. I think you could safely say that most of the A/C were shot down by light AA (2-4 cm).

(I've bolded the parts of the response)
Thanks, Marcel.
Your answer goes nicely along with mine comment that heavy AAA was hardly an answer for the threats. The US usage in Phillipines is an exception in the rule (Joe B. kindly provided the info about that).

While being cheaper then fighters, and not prone to loose the crew members likely, the return value is similar with that. It took the radar direction and/or proximity fuse to make the heavy AAA count; hardly an option for the late 1930 buying.